• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Dressage at Devon-Thorncroft no longer beneficiary?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    You have to wonder what it takes to cause a non-profit organization, that has greatly benefitted financially, and has had a relationship that looks great from the outside (in terms of brand value, etc.) to walk away from this program.

    I mean...really? In this economy?

    How hard has it gotten to deal with the group that is ***DRESSAGE AT DEVON***?
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
      All true- but, Jim Hall did get a great photo op out of it!!
      You mean he actually casts a reflection?

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
        Interesting.

        When these types of things happen, they generally end up being about the money- after the smoke clears. Thorncroft undoubtably needs all funding that they can wrangle- so, walking away would be interesting. OTOH, as mentioned, it is astounding the amount of effort they put in, every year, manning the booths, in order to make the $$ for food sales, etc.

        I understand that at least one person has been drawing a salary for the past couple of years, on the DAD end. I'm not sure how this would affect the situation, but, obviously, it draws down the pot.

        This has been an interesting trip- from seperating from DVCTA, to this. Hmmm...
        The show's manager drew a modest salary for years. Others had 'reimbursed expenses' - okee dokee then.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
          The "exempt purpose" of "New DaD" is:
          Would like the "new" DAD definition of 'majority'. I once sat in at an exec. comm. meeting years ago and heard the then chair utter the sentiment "if we give them (TEC) one dollar we've fulfilled our obligation." Put that in your pipe and smoke it all you cheerleaders of the old guard.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
            Honestly....one of the reasons for the split from DVCTA is that the running of DAD had gotten to be a HUGE responsibility and was taxing/overwhelming on a volunteer organization. Most large shows and HTs are now run professionally. Most have paid positions...hire secretaries and managers. There are huge issues with volunteer burn out.... and have been for a long time. I think even if DAD hadn't split from DVCTA...you would have certainly seen paid positions with certain management of that show contracted out to professionals.
            The 'real reason' for the split - hmmm, let me put this as succinctly as possible:

            1. New DVCTA president of '04 was stunned to discover the depth of liability to the club posed by DAD.
            2. The level of irresponsible behavior she felt was displayed by the principles posing liability to the parent organization.
            3. The overall lack of cooperation and lack of respect from the show committee to its parent organization's requests, however minor.
            4. The insistance that DAD exec. committee members serve terms on the DVCTA board simply because they 'contributed' the largest sum of cash.
            5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
            5. Ultimately waged an ugly campaign to oust the president after her first term to re-elect a past president more sympathetic and malleable to their needs/desires/childish tantrums/whims/egocentric visions of grandure and IMHO aid them in their long-time desire to split with the parent organization.
            I will never be of a mind that DVCTA was well served in the split, financially or otherwise. There were ways that could and would have been implemented to secure the shows ongoing and prosperous future, its beneficiaries long-term relationship, with significant long-term benefit to the parent organization if the president had ever had any real support from its members who, by and large, were found MIA and woke up wondering what happened, were sold beanstalk beans by a smooth talking few and will forever reap what they sewed. People get the governance they deserve.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
              You have to wonder what it takes to cause a non-profit organization, that has greatly benefitted financially, and has had a relationship that looks great from the outside (in terms of brand value, etc.) to walk away from this program.

              I mean...really? In this economy?

              How hard has it gotten to deal with the group that is ***DRESSAGE AT DEVON***?
              I can't speak to the specifics of the arrangement between Thorncroft and DAD, but I can tell you my own organization's experience with being asked to be the "beneficiary" of a major AA-rated hunter/jumper horse show in our area.

              While the gross proceeds of the show we were asked to work with are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, the net benefit to the beneficiary ended up being $10-20K or LESS over the past several years. We declined the honor of being the "beneficiary" because in order to do so, we would have had to provide over 100 volunteers for 12 hours a day over the course of about 8 days. The logistics of finding, training, and managing that effort would have completely consumed our Special Events Coordinator for at least a month or more.

              In the end, the opportunity cost to our organization was just too high. With the time and effort we'd expend for a possible (and I really emphasize possible because the ultimate benefit was never guaranteed) profit of $10-20K, it just wasn't going to be worth the time. There are easier, less costly ways to raise that money.

              I will also say that the former beneficiary organization of this particular horse show essentially burned out and didn't feel they were getting enough profit for the amount of work they had to put into the horse show.

              I would imagine that as competitor expect a higher and higher level of professionalism in the management of the shows they attend (whether its dressage or hunter/jumper), the cost of providing that level of service has gone up. Which in turn eats into the proceeds to the "beneficiary". And at a certain point, that diminishing return makes "volunteering" for that horse show not so beneficial to the non-profit.

              Edited to add: All this is a long winded way of saying the split with Thorncroft may have nothing to do with nefarious intents of the DAD management. Its happening everywhere with all kinds of shows.
              Last edited by eponacelt; Dec. 23, 2011, 08:24 AM. Reason: Added a more succinct thought!
              Here Be Dragons: My blog about venturing beyond the lower levels as a dressage amateur.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Does anyone know how much money Thorncroft received each year? I cannot imagine a show of this magnitude reorganizing in less than 9 months. Does anyone know how many volunteers it takes to run the show?

                Comment


                • #28
                  I was under the impression that the **donation** to Thorncroft was in the 75K range, each year...anyone else know? My information would be subject to my poor recollection, and is undoubtably dated, as well.

                  I have heard several things from key volunteers in the past several years- some opted out, because they got blamed for crap that wasn't their problem, or simply got tired of dealing with the nuclear group. Some stay involved, because of the **mission**, and probably their conception of cache...and many have just had enough, and walked away.

                  I was never involved, except as a sponsor.

                  I do think that the volunteer issue is key. Other than bringing in paying cncerns to do the midway food etc., which could be problematic as DAD apparently has raised the fees over the past years, I don't know how you are even going to deal with the concession issues. 'Tis the season to have a big problem, apparently!
                  When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                  www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                  http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
                    The 'real reason' for the split - hmmm, let me put this as succinctly as possible:

                    1. New DVCTA president of '04 was stunned to discover the depth of liability to the club posed by DAD.
                    2. The level of irresponsible behavior she felt was displayed by the principles posing liability to the parent organization.
                    3. The overall lack of cooperation and lack of respect from the show committee to its parent organization's requests, however minor.
                    4. The insistance that DAD exec. committee members serve terms on the DVCTA board simply because they 'contributed' the largest sum of cash.
                    5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
                    5. Ultimately waged an ugly campaign to oust the president after her first term to re-elect a past president more sympathetic and malleable to their needs/desires/childish tantrums/whims/egocentric visions of grandure and IMHO aid them in their long-time desire to split with the parent organization.
                    I will never be of a mind that DVCTA was well served in the split, financially or otherwise. There were ways that could and would have been implemented to secure the shows ongoing and prosperous future, its beneficiaries long-term relationship, with significant long-term benefit to the parent organization if the president had ever had any real support from its members who, by and large, were found MIA and woke up wondering what happened, were sold beanstalk beans by a smooth talking few and will forever reap what they sewed. People get the governance they deserve.
                    This matches my recollection-- and, I agree completely with your summation!
                    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                      PT- thanks for that- when DAD was under the auspices of DVCTA, I was under the impression rightly or wrongly- that no one pulled a salary. That all changed after **they** took control.

                      I recall one year, when there was some discussion about the proceeds being divided in some fashion between more than one beneficiary. I believe that Thorncroft was a bit concerned about that-- and, rightfully so.

                      Fascinating...carry on!
                      The show mgr, the breed show secretary, the performance secretary, the hospitality person in the main comm stand all took salaries during the DVCTA years. Others on the exec comm received perks & freebies. I speak from 13yrs experience during the Bonk/Nicholson DVCTA yrs.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        The nuclear grp was indeed an issue which sent many of the old time members fleeing the Dixon Oval, never to return. Accountabilty was the issue. The exec board wanted to spend like drunken sailors but the finance people wanted accountability & reciepts. One of my favorites was the $1800 tee shirts that never appeared, yet an exec member wanted reimbursement. Power, greed, the desire to be important, extra marital flings...all factors which have contributed to their current slippery slope situtation.

                        If I remember correctly, the performance show sec rec'd reimbursement for her expenses (wink-wink).

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
                          .....
                          5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
                          .......
                          Do say more......What was the suit based on?

                          I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.
                          Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                          Alfred A. Montapert

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by wineberrywillie View Post
                            If I remember correctly, the performance show sec rec'd reimbursement for her expenses (wink-wink).
                            Curious but what's so odd about that?
                            In H J shows secretaries are paid show employees. Because of the myriad of USEF regulations you want a professional secretary to be handling those details.
                            And if I recall this correctly, Dressage show secretary have to have some qualifications to be a secretary at Level 3 and up dressage competitions.

                            If you try and operate with an untrained, volunteer secretary the potential USEF fines could end up to be more than the cost of hiring professional staff.
                            Expenses just as hotel/motel travel expenses are routinely paid.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                              Curious but what's so odd about that?
                              In H J shows secretaries are paid show employees. Because of the myriad of USEF regulations you want a professional secretary to be handling those details.
                              And if I recall this correctly, Dressage show secretary have to have some qualifications to be a secretary at Level 3 and up dressage competitions.

                              If you try and operate with an untrained, volunteer secretary the potential USEF fines could end up to be more than the cost of hiring professional staff.
                              Expenses just as hotel/motel travel expenses are routinely paid.
                              It's not odd but there was a poster who didn't think anyone was paid. I'm sure once they went to professional mgmt, the salaries increased.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
                                Do say more......What was the suit based on?

                                I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.
                                Essentially breach of contract.

                                Confidentiality clause in place re/settlement so can say no more.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  "People get the governance they deserve."

                                  Completely OFF-TOPIC, but ... Oh dear lord, is THAT ever a statement deserving of a great deal of contemplation in these times.

                                  Carol
                                  www.ayliprod.com
                                  Equine Photography in the Northeast

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
                                    Do say more......What was the suit based on?

                                    I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.
                                    DAD hired a "consultant" to bring in sponsorship monies. There was a disagreement about whether or not he should have been paid for certain sponsorships. He got cranky. Initially, DAD did not take him at all seriously, and had an attorney who was essentially a "friend to DAD" helping them handle it- gratis. Then, they realized that they were in this a bit too deep-- but, still did not report back in a transparent way to the "Mother Ship"- DVCTA.

                                    DVCTA was bearing a huge amount of liability for decisions made outside of their actual control. Of course, DAD's attitude was "how dare you question our ability to make these decisions!". This was during the Dr. Jim Hall era.

                                    I did know that the breed show secretary, the performance show secretary and the show manager were all compensated- but, I did not realize that they drew salaries- which I would define as being paid year round- not just during the show, and the immediate time prior, in preparation.

                                    I did hear, true or not, that the Breed Show Chair's USDF Convention trip had been covered by the show, but, as stated, I am not sure how true all of that is. Of course, I do tend to believe it.
                                    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
                                      You mean he actually casts a reflection?
                                      Well, I DID see the picture, and it DID look like him...but I SO get your point!
                                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I do remember when they canned a former Chair of DAD, because he allegedly charged some porn on the DAD credit card. Yes, really.

                                        Now, they do not have to worry about that issue, because the fox is IN the hen house!
                                        When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                        www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                        http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                                          I do remember when they canned a former Chair of DAD, because he allegedly charged some porn on the DAD credit card. Yes, really.

                                          Now, they do not have to worry about that issue, because the fox is IN the hen house!
                                          Yes, this is true of the former chair. In his defense, he ran an excellent show & he was a great leader for the team. He was fiscally responsible & fair. Mr. Hall was his side kick & driver at the time but elevated to chair because he had the correct male equipment to herd the hens.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X