Behind the bridle; two questions

[CHT]

this is a two part question:

Part 1) New lesson horse. Wants to travel behind the bridle with his nose overly low and in like a HUS QH (he is a wellish bred warmblood). Horse is 6. We ride him in a double jointed happy mouth D-ring, and the weight of the reins is more contact than he seems to want. Horse acts like a zombie, only moderately waking up when a jump is in front of him, or when you smack him hard on the bum.

I think the horse has perhaps had his kindly nature taken for granted and was pushed to learn too much too fast, but I could be wrong.

Bought him after having 3 months off, so I don't think time off is the answer. He had his teeth done in the spring by my vet (with his former owner) and his teeth were checked when I bought him.

Do you think a Micklem bridle might help stablize the bit so it is quieter in his mouth so he feels less nagged by the bit? ANy other advice/exercises? Looking forward to summer when we can trail ride, but not going to happen over the winter.

Forward does help, but it takes a lot of excitement to get this horse going forward and staying forward...and he still doesn't want to take what I consider normal contact.

Part 2) Looking at lower end dressage horses. Common trait seems to be that they are behind the bridle, but for different reasons.

Of the following reasons for a horse being behind the bridle, what do you find easiest to fix (if under a new rider):

a- Not ridden forward enough
b- Horse that is built very light in the throatlatch and overbends only when stronger contact is taken (such as when rider is trying to work on something new requiring more collection). Rider appears to have very quiet/soft hands.
c - horse that is afraid of the bit as rider is constantly jiggling their hands. One such horse had the rider sawing on the reins and the horse was in a double bridle; horse was wanting to reach out to extend but was punished...would that make for trouble getting true extensions/lenthens?

Assume the above horses are all between 7-9 years old.

[NWDressage]

Generally being behind the bit is either the horse needs to be ridden forward into a light contact, stepping more under himself and coming more over the back. This is where I would work on suppleness and balance, with a good, steady, relaxed rhythm. Or, the horse is too strong in the bridle and becoming short in the neck, probably because he is not using his hind end enough and is on the forehand, or because the rider is riding "front-to-back", that is, the rider has a strong hold on the reins and pulls the horse back into collection rather than using their seat to push the hind end down while maintaining impulsion for uphill balance.

When assessing why the horse is behind the vertical, look at where the poll is, and what point in the neck the horse is breaking. Also look at the length of neck and amount of tension - especially notice when the horse becomes short in the neck. Another good indicator is the muscles - which muscles is the horse using? Is his underneck more pronounced than the topline? Does the topline muscle work from the tail all the way to the poll? You often see horses with developed topline muscles that lose the development halfway up the neck, or with an overdeveloped underneck. Not good things.

I prefer my horses in a loose ring, double jointed snaffle. Some may require something else, but in general, that is my preference.

To help the topline, you might want to consider lunging in relatively loose side reins. You don't want them restrictive, but you want them tight enough that the horse can work into them. Generally, when the horse has a better musculature, he works better.

I would try to push the horse forward from a strong, not driving, seat and leg that will enable him to work his topline. Leg-yields and renverse would also likely help, and play with leg yields in different situations. I.e., leg-yield away from your outside leg while keeping the horse's head facing the wall - essentially the shoulders on the track and the haunches on an inside track. Or lots of enlarging on a circle, but keeping the shoulders on the line of the circle while pushing the haunches out. These types of movements will help the horse step more under himself and will help work him over his topline, encouraging him to seek the contact and go in a more "correct" frame, with his nose more out in front of him. Also try to not let him get too low if that is where he likes to go, but use your seat and leg to push the hind end down and push him up and into the contact rather than use your hand to prevent him from getting low.

[Gimbalist]

Probably the horse was never taught proper bit acceptance from the ground and then ridden with too strong a hand. Teaching flexions and asking the horse to chew the bit with a lifting rein from the ground would be my first work with a retrain. If you don't know what these are then you need to have someone teach you.

Quarter horses tend to have small mouths, so be aware of how the bit fits this guy. It isn't a matter of "finding the right bit" but being sure of fit. A simple snaffle or french link - I prefer eggbutt styles as they can't pull through the horse's mouth - should not be too thick or thin and is the proper width for the horse. If the bit fits properly, then it's a matter of teaching acceptance from the ground then under saddle.

Understanding arrets and demi arrets could also be of help to a horse that curls but only if the rider is learned in their use.

Just some thoughts.

[easyrider]

This will be a tougher fix than usual, since he's a lesson horse. But if you remain consistent in your corrections and help your students do the same, the cure will come, and surprisingly quickly.

The way you describe it (he's not forward; he's a zombie), the horse has no respect for the leg or the hand. So the hind end has to be fixed as well as the front end.

I'd suggest you make things a lot more challenging, so he has to wake up and pay attention and learn that it's not all right to blow you off.

I have a zero tolerance policy for behind the bit. Every time a horse that likes to evade the hand goes BTV, it gets corrected. Every single time and immediately. If a horse is just sucking back and hasn't yet gone BTV but will, and I know it, I fix it then, before he's behind the bit, because he's already thinking that way. I agree with Gimbalist that demi-arrets are a great tool.

Here are some things you can do: Use an opening rein and change direction. Double. Canter counterbent around a circle. Quick transitions -- try halt-trot-halt-trot-halt-trot. Turn on the forehand (or haunches) and canter on. Whatever works for the horse at the moment. I have a feeling you already know this, but the reward counts as much as the challenge.

In answer to your question about which is the easiest to fix, I have to say that they're all relatively easy to fix if you institute a zero tolerance policy for BTV. But I think that the horse afraid of the hand requires the most finesse, because you have a trust issue as well as a training issue.

Since you mention that the horse is wearing a happy mouth, I'd also examine it and see how smooth it is. The happy mouths get scratched really easily and that can bother the horse. If it's scratched, replace it. If it's not, keep checking it. Or try a different bit. There are a lot of good alternatives, depending on the conformation of your horse's mouth.

[NOMIOMI1]

Lots of great suggestions above! Counter bending work if done very softly and allowing the horse to stretch forward and down whenever they are wanting to is such a great way to fix this.

Check your inside rein, it should be butterfly light and VERY still.

The half halts have to be completely invisible and I men seat and hands perfect and still, but lots of them in between tempo changes both forward and back.

[CHT]

I should try to get a video of him. He came with a plain loose ring, but I find him a little less parnoid in the D-ring. The D hasn't been chewed. His mouth is so narrow I have limited bit options, although perhaps he would like my filly's hanging snaffle?

Found some OLD video (so not with me) on the flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlhPI9qESE

This shows how he wants to curl under.

Old jumping video from last year...again, before I got him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlGXp...6&feature=plcp

You can see in places how he tends to flip his head up and back rather than reach under himself behind. I can really see this when we do trot poles; he prefers to reach for them by lifting his head and flipping his shoulders ahead of him (and then stepping on the poles behind), although this has been improving.

We have been doing lots of transitions with the girl that rides him dressage. She rides well enough I let her ride in spurs, which help moderately. You can thwack him with a dressage whip and get pretty much zero response. Haven't tried counter bend. Will try that in her lesson on Wednesday.

On tuesday I have a different student trying him over fences. Maybe I will try to video her on him.

I am pretty sure the issue comes from him just not using himself behind.

Simple question: Should I have riders maintain a contact (taught rein) despite where his head goes, or is a slightly saggy rein ok for now, if that is what he deems to be contact?

[alibi_18]

From the 1st video of his 12th time being ridden, I think he looks quite great!
Going behind the bit might indicate some strenght issues as well as misunderstanding, as you can see in this video but I see nothing alarming there.

I, personnally, don't like Happy Mouth bits. I find their edges to be quite rough and utterly pinching. The 3 pieces ones being the worst of all.

And the jumping video shows a great looking horse too, quiet and safe.

I think the horse has perhaps had his kindly nature taken for granted and was pushed to learn too much too fast, but I could be wrong

I think he still has that kind nature but if he had been pushed too much too fast, you would have way more problems than just curling and not wanting to engage or go faster. The horse would simply shut down, buck, rear and God knows what.

So, since I can assume he's been a lesson horse most of his life, and he is only 6, it is 'normal' that his responses from the aids be a bit less expressive than you would like.

This is still a fairly young horse, who probably doesn't know much his job and, like every horse!, tries to evade from his work as much as he can, so if he's been ridden mostly by beginners/amateurs, this might happen way more than needed!

How often is this horse being ridden by a pro?

You can see in places how he tends to flip his head up and back rather than reach under himself behind. I can really see this when we do trot poles; he prefers to reach for them by lifting his head and flipping his shoulders ahead of him (and then stepping on the poles behind), although this has been improving.

This is (usually) only strenght issue and a bit of misunderstanding. If it is improving, it is because someone is riding him properly and consistantly asking for it.

I am pretty sure the issue comes from him just not using himself behind.

Being on the bit, round, using the hind legs properly engaging and all, this is not something a horse will do on its own just for the sake of it. So it doesn't come from 'him', it comes from the rider not asking things correctly! And this is something that takes time for the horse to understand and time for the horse to built up the muscles to be able to do what is being asked.

Simple question: Should I have riders maintain a contact (taught rein) despite where his head goes, or is a slightly saggy rein ok for now, if that is what he deems to be contact?

If it is not an advance rider, I would suggest not too much contact, but not dropping completely the reins either. Really soft. Jumping part with a neckstrap to grab to make sure they don't interfere with its mouth.

If it is an advance rider or a pro, the horse should be asked for as much contact as the horse allows but it has to come from their legs and the horse being round and using its hind legs properly and lighter contact for the jumping part.

[CHT]

The horse has been a lesson horse for 6-weeks. He has been here for about 3 months, but was in fitness training under one of my more advanced students for the first while. He has two riders 1/3 leasing him, and then I may have a random rider ride him a fifth time, or I may ride him. (he goes max 5 rides per week like the rest of my lesson horses)

He will occasionally spook if something startles him from his zombie state.

The rider in the videos is his former owner/trainer.

Horse accepts more contact in the happy mouth than his old bit. Its edges are not rough. It is the model with the metal middle piece. I think I am going to try the micklem on him in the new year.

I ride him once and a while; jumped him on Saturday to show a student what he was capable of. His one jump rider is very good at grabbing mane a couple strides out as he needs zero contact once straight at the jump and will find his own take off distance.

He goes better for me I think because I am more fluid with my seat and am more confident about wacking him with the crop if needed...and I can feel his energy level change sooner than a twice a week rider can. The horse just feels so frickin' depressed when hacking it is depressing to ride him if that makes any sense. can't wait until spring to get him out on the trails. (too icey right now).

May try a cavelletti grid this week to see what he does. And counter bending. Will try to video.

Also considering a vitamin B shot incase that helps.

[Perfect Pony]

Well I think you have an awful lot of red flags here. The scariest part is always when I read a post that sounds exactly like what I would have said about my neurological mare before she was finally diagnosed.

Personally it sounds like something is wrong with him, a horse that age should not act the way you are describing. In a young horse, not wanting to go, not reacting to a whip, slugging along, and flipping his head, not wating to take contact tell me the horse is physically not 100%.

I'd really evaluated his diet as well as have someone look him over holistically.

[FlashGordon]

I think the horse has perhaps had his kindly nature taken for granted and was pushed to learn too much too fast, but I could be wrong.

Hmm I think that may be a fair assessment.

FYI, I'm not a trainer, though I did use to spend a lot of time riding/restarting horses that had been W/T western trail types or WP rejects. Most were very behind the bit.

Watching that video of his 12th ride.... that's way more contact than I would take with a horse at that stage. 12 rides in they are still learning how to go forward. Maybe he never did really learn. It's shocking how many horses are ridden very backwards from day one.

I'd probably do what PerfectPony suggests-- thorough vet exam to be sure nothing is amiss.

Then I'd have one person ride him for awhile and re-install a go button. And teach him that he *can* go forward. You need someone that is not afraid to make/let him move out, and is not going to block him with their seat or shut him down with their hands.

He's cute though, hopefully he'll come around.

[Perfect Pony]

FYI, I'm not a trainer, though I did use to spend a lot of time riding/restarting horses that had been W/T western trail types or WP rejects. Most were very behind the bit.

But did you read that this horse is supposedly a well bred WB?

fwiw I agree wit you on having one person ride him for a while, if only to see how he is with consistent good riding. It's the lethargic behavior, not wanting to take contact combined with him struggling with cavaletti (and tripping/stepping on them) that worries me the most.

Is he on a good vitamin/mineral supplement? Is he getting adequate Vitamin E and Omega 3s? Electrolytes/salt? No 6 year old should be in a "zombie state".

[angel]

Horses that are ridden constantly behind the bit are generally being ridden with too short a rein, and with a rider who is riding on their crotch.

Riders need to learn how to balance their pelvises correctly so that they can lift the horse into the longer contact that the horse needs.

If this horse is also a lesson horse, it is quite probably that he is also sucking back from the contact because most of the folks that ride him are pinching with their knees to keep from being throw forward by an incorrectly balanced pelvis.

Never is it the horse's fault that the horse is not "forward" enough.

[CHT]

angle, by behind the bit, I do not mean behind the verticle. I mean that it is so far impossible to get the horse to reach into contact. We can get him into a pretty outline, but he is still behind the bit in my mind as he is not stretching through his back into the contact.

I have a vet out next week to pull blood on another horse, so will get blood and a general exam done on this one. Also going to get a vit-B shot. Can't hurt right?

Although I appreciate that one rider would likely help this horse, it is not practical at this time. I am trying to limit the number of different people on him though to three plus occasionally me.

He is only on (mostly grass) hay, salt and minerals as are my other lesson horses. He came to me fat, so was on a diet, but is now looking good, so perhaps after his blood work I will add some Calf-Manna or similar to his diet.

As far as I know he has been this way since day 1 as you can see from his video as a three year old.

[CHT]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;6030063]But did you read that this horse is supposedly a well bred WB?

...[QUOTE]

Ok, well bred may be an exageration, but he has bloodlines I recognize as being decent local stallions; Roskof on top (Matador) and I can't remember the bottom right now, but I think it is Hanovarian.

[CHT]

Watched jump kid do her lease ride on behind the bit horse on Monday; she rode him with a loopy rein and did lots of transitions and poles on the ground. He looked more interested than usual. Still obviously not on the bridle as he had no contact, and not really forward, but more perky.

Maybe I just need to let him play on a loose rein for now to get him more interested in being ridden?

His dressage lease student is going to be riding him in a clinic I am hosting mid-jan, so very interested to hear what the clinician thinks.

[FlashGordon]

Watched jump kid do her lease ride on behind the bit horse on Monday; she rode him with a loopy rein and did lots of transitions and poles on the ground. He looked more interested than usual. Still obviously not on the bridle as he had no contact, and not really forward, but more perky.

Maybe I just need to let him play on a loose rein for now to get him more interested in being ridden?

Yeah, I would. I'd can the dressage stuff for awhile. Letting a kid hack him and jump him on a loose rein is probably the best medicine for now.

And then, in a few months, start to work on some contact again.

I know probably not easy with him being a lesson horse, but that has always been my best bet for the behind-the-bit guys. It's amazing what a quiet rider that lets him be + loopy rein + lots of fun things like jumping, trail riding, etc. will do......

[CHT]

Yesterday I had dressage kid do elevated trot poles, then halt, turn around quickly (not caring about pretty) then trot back over the poles a few times. Seemed to help and he started to use his back. She was able to get contact at the trot for a bit, but we aren't going to bother trying at canter and walk until we get the trot better.

We also did some halt and back ups, and for the first time ever he actually did a proper two beat rein back. Having kid raise her hands all the time really helped. Apparently he likes a hand that is well above the line to the bit.

For the first time I am starting to see some life in this horse that is giving me hope. Maybe he just needed some kids to spoil him? Still interested in what the blood shows next week, and I am going to try the Micklem in the new year...perhaps bitless for jumping, and bitted for flat/dressage?

Really want to get him out on the trails, but it is too icey right now.

[NOMIOMI1]

Yesterday I had dressage kid do elevated trot poles, then halt, turn around quickly (not caring about pretty) then trot back over the poles a few times. Seemed to help and he started to use his back. She was able to get contact at the trot for a bit, but we aren't going to bother trying at canter and walk until we get the trot better.

We also did some halt and back ups, and for the first time ever he actually did a proper two beat rein back. Having For the first time I am starting to see some life in this horse that is giving me hope. Maybe he just needed some kids to spoil him? Still interested in what the blood shows next week, and I am going to try the Micklem in the new year...perhaps bitless for jumping, and bitted for flat/dressage?

Really want to get him out on the trails, but it is too icey right now.

For getting a horse connected the above is all NOT going to help as you are using hands hands hands to do rein back, turning hard after poles, and poles encourages a horse that is not using himself to not use himself tensly if not done with perfection.

You need less hands and more riding in the bridle that is a nice soft hand at the other end.

Raised hands would encourage curling immensily.

Dressage kid should have been able to ride the horse up into connection from her first step. You take up the connection and the horse may struggle with it but you keep asking. Poles, turning, reinbacks, high hands, none of it will make connection happen. Its the rider that takes up connection and then follows the horses mouth so as not to break contact.

[netg]

As my horse was starting to learn to accept contact (he was a curler, too) I definitely found holding my hands too high helped. It puts pressure on the corner of their mouths rather than the bars, and I think that's less intimidating to a horse who either has had too much bit pressure (likely for my horse, as he raced) or just has never learned to accept it, so it makes sense that the high hands helped.

(Sorry I don't remember all the posts in this thread, though I have read them - so I'm not trying to repeat what anyone else said!)

[easyrider]

Having kid raise her hands all the time really helped. Apparently he likes a hand that is well above the line to the bit.

I wasn't able to see your videos (the links didn't work for me) and I can't tell from your description, but I hope that you are raising the hand and as soon as you start to get the reaction you want, rewarding (and training both rider and horse) by returning to neutral, with a straight line from elbow to mouth.