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Canter Pirouette work

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  • Canter Pirouette work

    Hi all,

    I've just posted a video of a friend of mine schooling the canter pirouette with her eight-year-old Hanoverian. My friend is an amateur. She has five kids and two dogs.



  • #2
    For what purpose have you posted this video? What does having children and dogs to do with riding?


    • #3
      Can I ask what the point was of posting this? Do you have your friends permission?


      • Original Poster

        I posted it because it is a training video and I do have her permission to post. Is there something wrong that I am missing?


        • #5
          Good for her! It must be hard to find time to ride with 5 kids!


          • #6
            If you are asking what this rider can do to improve her canter work, I would tell her to work more on her canter seat. She is still flopping her seat in the canter, which will displace the horse too much for a good pirouette. It also shows that she is not using her seat correctly to lift the horse into the canter. Her horse is presently on the forehand, and she needs to lose the double bridle until she can ride these movements...especially the canter movements...with her seat. The horse needs to be ridden up into the bit...not restricted by the curb as the rider is pulling the front of the horse to her with her hands rather than lifting the horse's forequarters with her seat. Working in this fashion is extremely hard on the horse's hocks, and if she has not started injecting the horse's hocks already, she will soon be forced to do so.


            • #7
              Thanks for sharing aella, and please continue to do so. I enjoy reading your blog very much.

              Angel / Happy Feet - it must be nice to have a life so blessed that being an ammy with 5 kids, 2 dogs, and and horse schooling 4th is such a cakewalk that you can't even fathom why someone would make a point of mentioning it.

              I would be honoured to have a friend like aella that was so proud of me that she took the time to feature me in her blog.


              • #8
                just ignor, anyways angel nice response, and having dogs and kids and horses
                just shows what we can achieve-- tell her to keep working at she iwll get there nice horse to


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lowroller View Post
                  Thanks for sharing aella, and please continue to do so. I enjoy reading your blog very much.

                  Angel / Happy Feet - it must be nice to have a life so blessed that being an ammy with 5 kids, 2 dogs, and and horse schooling 4th is such a cakewalk that you can't even fathom why someone would make a point of mentioning it.
                  Whoa Whoa whoa. First of all I did not say anything about kids or dogs in my post. I simply asked if she had permission to post a video of her friends riding and why was she posting. I see often people ripped a new back side, and before the wolfs were let loose on this video I was asking if the person in the video wanted it posted.
                  The video shows no progression in the canter work, the work only gets worse. Angle is totally correct, and I would add the quality of the canter needed great improving the horse is behind the leg, not jumping through and getting very frustrated with the demands being ask of him.
                  Also when a horse is not in front of the leg, go forward, the transitions shown in the video were counter productive.
                  I am sure the woman in the video works very hard, that is why I asked what was the point to the video because if someone posted her video without her consent :<
                  lowroller - don't make commments about what someone has or doesn't have to deal with on a daily basis. You could be in for a rude awakening.


                  • #10
                    I thought it was cute to hear about the rider's kids and pups. It IS hard to get to ride regularly when one has a lot of other obligations.

                    The woman doesn't really need to work on her 'canter seat' in order to do this sort of schooling. Her seat is quite adequate for that. She will become even more flexible and supple as time goes on. As the horse's impulsion and suppleness develop, the rider's seat will develop.

                    This is how the early pirouette work always looks. It is very typical. And it is on the right track.

                    To comment further on the video - It looks like the horse and rider are having a good time schooling this. It's very nice to see someone learning with their horse!

                    The work is going in the right direction, and the horse is learning to do a 'pirouette canter', a more collected canter. Some of the work is almost that 'on the spot canter' which is very, very good preparation. It's especially nice to see that the horse can carry this much and is responding so well to the work.

                    The horse is responding properly in this early stage and the instructor seems to have given this rider good advice, I like very much the comments the instructor is making - they are very intelligent, appropriate comments. The instructor also remains very, very calm, even when there's a problem, which is very good for the horse and the rider.

                    additionally, when the rider freshens the canter on the straight line, it is very clear that this horse is very, very straight and the rider has done her preparatory work very well.

                    A little word to other posters - please have realistic expectations for videos posted here. These are of people who are learning. When someone is schooling a horse not everything will be perfect. A rider can have details to work on, and still be doing a lot of positive work.

                    When we become too perfectionistic in expectations of other riders, it's an an absolute giveaway that our own work is suffering from overly perfectionistic expectations. The horses get picked on and nagged too much when the rider's expectations are not realistic. Horses know when the rider feels they 'aren't doing well enough' all the time. It takes away their spirit and their love of their work. Recognizing a realistic expectation for that stage of training is very important, both for the horse's mental peace, and to prevent the 'expector' from driving everyone else around him, completely insane .


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                      Horses know when the rider feels they 'aren't doing well enough' all the time. It takes away their spirit and their love of their work.
                      This is so very, very true! slc2, your entire response was perfect!


                      • #12
                        SLC wrote:
                        When we become too perfectionistic in expectations of other riders, it's an an absolute giveaway that our own work is suffering from overly perfectionistic expectations

                        I don't agree. I think on the BB's, when people are too prefectionist in expectations of other riders, it is straight out nasty, petty, high-school level jealousy.

                        Regarding SLC's assessment of horse/rider - I agree, things look like they are on the right track to me....
                        Last edited by Moderator 1; Jun. 20, 2008, 12:50 PM. Reason: personal commentary


                        • #13
                          For Fourth Level, or even Third Level, the canter seat is in no way adequate when it carries a little plop with it. The seat for upper level canter work...and even by First Level should stay glued to the saddle. The horse should never be ridden with the curb bit constantly engaged, and in fact, this video even looks as if the curb chain is not correctly adjusted. Not sour grapes, but something this rider needs to hear, as apparently her instructor is not telling her these important details.


                          • #14
                            I agree with SLC the work looks like it is progressing nicely. Mistakes do happen when a rider/horse are learning new movements. The "pirouette canter" and the "working pirouette" as well as the quality of the collected canter are already fairly good. I liked Chris's calmness and returning to the walk pirouette or going straight ahead when the horse needed it. This rider/instructor/horse combo will have lovely pirouettes in just a bit more time, probably later this year as we can see on the video that the basics are good. I would ask the rider to try to sit a bit more to the inside with their seat and think about riding a bit more haunches in this direction, it would help the quarters from changing leads. IMHO
                            It is my thought that posters who run down videos schooling higher level movements have never trained these movements themselves. If they had, they would be more forgiving....
                            Riding is not a gentle hobby to be picked up and laid down. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and once it has done so he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.


                            • #15
                              Unfortunately, I was once where this rider is now...which is why I warn about what is wrong. Yes, I have schooled and trained the pirouette, which is why I can point out those deadly flaws that will keep the pirouette from happening correctly.


                              • #16
                                Nice sample of introductory canter p work. I certainly don't see any "deadly flaws". If I wanted to get picky I'd like to see the collected canter work a bit more forward and the horse a little more open in front. But really they are doing fine.

                                One thing I found about riding this movement is if the canter is right, about all you have to do to get a reasonable canter pirouette is to look over your shoulder. It really helps with the distribution of weight in the saddle and positions your hands nicely.

                                Tell your friend - Nice horse and keep up the good work!

                                I only have 2 kids and one dog
                                See those flying monkeys? They work for me.


                                • #17
                                  The OP has explained that she had permission to post this training video, and posters are welcome to provide comment on what they see--be it words of encouragement and praise or suggestions for improvement.

                                  We've removed some personal commentary between posters; please avoid it going forward in the thread.

                                  Mod 1


                                  • #18
                                    I'm sure sometimes that's the case, lowroller, but often, I think it's that the person criticizing simply isn't familiar with how riders develop and simply has expectations that are not in keeping with the situation.

                                    In fact, lowroller, this situation reminds me very much of the total panning that Martin Schaudt's video of his student riding his schoolmaster, and learning flying changes, pirouettes and other work.

                                    People thought the video was 'TERRIBLE'. Very few people enjoyed it at all.

                                    I LOVED it. It was such a pleasure to watch. NO it was not perfect! So what!

                                    And in that case, lowroller, i am CONVINCED that much of the reaction was simple jealousy. People were just really pissed off to see a young gal have access to such a nice horse and instructor. So they tore it apart.

                                    For example, I saw the rider's seat plop in the saddle a little. It just did not bother me - it was tiny, it was just not worth picking on, and I don't even think it's appropriate to point it out right now. The horse is a little stiff, a little upright - it will improve and she will get more flexible in her back.

                                    There is SO MUCH GOING RIGHT, i am just not worried. AT ALL.

                                    I think one of the toughest things for a trainer/instructor to learn, both in regard to horse and rider, is when to say, 'it doesn't matter'.

                                    I've watched many less experienced instructors scream and scream and yell at students that they are doing A, B, C, D, when at that stage, the student could not possibly be expected to do anything else.

                                    I was watching a friend's lesson once when some rail jockey made a comment about something that was not perfect. The teacher turned around and shouted at the top of her lungs, 'FIRST THINGS FIRST, IT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE TO WORRY ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW - AND - WHEN I WANT YOUR HELP, I'LL ASK FOR IT!'

                                    In the large and flaming silence that followed, few little giggles were heard, but the commenter quit 'commenting', LOL.

                                    I once watched someone who I think is one of the really great instructors in the United States, Vera Kessells, Mike Barisone's wife.

                                    A rider came in with a horse that was completely out of control, the rider was sitting - I don't really know how anyone could sit WORSE, or more crookedly. The horse was tearing around completely off balance, crooked, terrible on the reins, stiff as a board, ignoring the leg totally at times and reacting like they were red hot pokers at other times, and - well it was just really unbelievable that the rider was brave enough to get up on this thing. It was one of the worst things I've ever seen at a clinic.

                                    And in about 20 minutes, the horse was going around looking a whole hell of a lot more normal, the rider was starting to feel how she was crooked and correcting it.

                                    I have to say - it was really like a miracle. Vera just got in there and started talking in that loud, clear, VERY positive voice of hers that just says to people 'YOU CAN DO THIS, YOU CAN CHANGE THIS'. Basics basics basics, nothing fancy, no tricks, no wierd stuff - just BASICS.

                                    I'm not saying she's the only one like this, but she IS like this, and we need more people in dressage like Vera Kessells.


                                    • #19
                                      I consider all of the praise for how OK this woman and her horse are doing at canter pirouettes to be an insult to correct dressage training.

                                      The horse is not coming through from behind. Period.

                                      As far as comments that I would say such a thing being a reflection of some faith-based assumption (and you know what assume stands for) that I have never ridden a pirouette or have not tried any of this stuff myself and that I am just jealous ... Oh Please.

                                      I do not think a rider should be using a double bridle until they have learned the Independent Seat first.

                                      Dressage is not supposed to be about wishful thinking. It is about training the horse correctly in the classical manner for military riding (that is the origin) and there are accepted methods and expected results that make up the basis of dressage.

                                      Not riding the canter priouette correctly is asking far more than any horse should have to produce. It is damaging to the hocks and probably other areas as well.

                                      Until this rider can sit the horse correctly and use an Independent Seat properly I do not think canter pirouettes are appropriate.

                                      I find all of the praise to be an insult to the time and effort that I (and others that have done the same thing) put into finding high calliber instruction and sweating my buns off. It took more time to learn to do it correctly, but the end results are far more rewarding and you don't destroy your horse's long-term soundness doing it.


                                      • #20
                                        Post a video of yourself, and show a more independent seat.

                                        Give us all something to strive for.