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Mechanics of shoulder in question

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  • Mechanics of shoulder in question

    Do you think the shoulder in puts much lateral torque on the hind pasterns?

    I am thinking it would be less strain (laterally) than leg yeild as the hind end should stay fairly straight, but was having trouble thinking it through.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

  • #2
    The hind end is supposed to track straight ahead in S-I. The only effect on the hind legs is that S-I is also a beginning collecting exercise, so the horse's weight will shift back on to the hindquarters, including the hind joints. In collection, the hind joints need to bend and carry more weight.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
      The hind end is supposed to track straight ahead in S-I. The only effect on the hind legs is that S-I is also a beginning collecting exercise, so the horse's weight will shift back on to the hindquarters, including the hind joints. In collection, the hind joints need to bend and carry more weight.
      This. The hind end isn't changing as far as positioning.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I got to that point of thought, but then I wondered about how the inside leg is weighted when it is up and under the barrel. As the weight above the leg is distributed unevenly (more to the outside), does that mean the outside of the leg is carrying more weight, which would put uneven weight/torque on the leg wouldn't it?
        Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

        Comment


        • #5
          Quote from,'The USDF Guide to Dressage',

          Invented by the French master Gueriniere, the shoulder-in is the best all-around exercise for strengthening the horse's inside hind leg and developing straightness and the carrying power needed for collection.

          Leg yield would place less stress on the joints as it doesn't require the leg to come under and carry in the same way s.i. does.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            I am thinking that leg yeilding (at trot) would have a fair bit of lateral torque on the hind pasterns. I am not asking about weight bearing, but rather how that weight is born; evenly on the leg, or unevenly inside vs outside of the leg/joint.

            When I "leg yeild" across my kitchen floor, I can feel the weight going from the outside to the inside of my foot.

            I cannot however think of how to create the basic mechanics of a shoulder in as I only have two legs.
            Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

            Comment


            • #7
              In shoulder-in, the weight is on the outside shoulder.
              "Rock n' roll's not through, yeah, I'm sewing wings on this thing." --Destroyer
              http://dressagescriblog.wordpress.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                I think this will help answer your question.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjhMStcbmPc


                Based on this video, I think there would be a slight torque on the inside hind, because it has to step in front of the outside hind.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kinnip View Post
                  In shoulder-in, the weight is on the outside shoulder.


                  Weight should be transferred more to the hindquarters.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                    I think this will help answer your question.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjhMStcbmPc


                    Based on this video, I think there would be a slight torque on the inside hind, because it has to step in front of the outside hind.
                    That video is pretty bad, by the way. It keeps alternating between the traditional three track shoulder in to the controversial four track shoulder in (which some call a leg yield.)

                    There is no "torque" on the hind pasterns. The horse's inside hind which comes forward and under the horse's barrel, swings under from the hip. There should be no twisting of the lower joints.
                    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post


                      Weight should be transferred more to the hindquarters.
                      The inside hip does drop, but the horse still manages to stay on all four feet, no capsizing to the rear. The weight transfers diagonally from the inside hind to the outside front. When you perform SI on a circle, you can really feel it.
                      "Rock n' roll's not through, yeah, I'm sewing wings on this thing." --Destroyer
                      http://dressagescriblog.wordpress.com/

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        How can the weight transfer from the inside hind to the outside front if those legs are both on the ground at the same time?
                        Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                          That video is pretty bad, by the way. It keeps alternating between the traditional three track shoulder in to the controversial four track shoulder in (which some call a leg yield.)
                          Actually, it's a really good video with slow motion to help the OP see exactly what's going on with the hind end. It looks a bit odd in slo-mo, and the angle does change slightly before the corner. But the real-time footage is a perfectly acceptable shoulder in down the long side.

                          There is no "torque" on the hind pasterns. The horse's inside hind which comes forward and under the horse's barrel, swings under from the hip. There should be no twisting of the lower joints.
                          I was confusing torque with medial/lateral stress, so I would agree. Probably not any appreciable torque to the inside hind in shoulder in, but probably some additional medial/lateral stress.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CHT View Post
                            How can the weight transfer from the inside hind to the outside front if those legs are both on the ground at the same time?
                            One has to wonder.


                            http://www.janesavoie.com/blog/learn...s-shoulder-in/

                            "Shoulder-in is also a collecting exercise. It increases your horse’s self-carriage because he lowers his inside hip with each step. As a result, his center of gravity shifts back toward his hind legs. His hindquarters carry more weight, and his front end elevates. "

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              oh my lord. I get really worried about those the future of Dressage when riders posting about fundamentals like shoulder ins have so much confusion!
                              the shoulder in you are loading the inside hind there is no greater medial/lateral stress on the hind legs, as the hind end of the horse tracks straight. the only reason the inside hind leg has a greater load is because due to the shoulder moving inward, the inside hind travels closer to the center of mass. It is not a displacement of the hind leg, but a displacement of the forelegs.
                              The primary purpose of the shoulder in (as in the other 3 classical lateral exercises) is the asymmetrical loading of the hind legs for the purpose of conquering the natural asymmetry in all horses. Using these exercises, one can try to develop more engagement of a deficient hind leg/ When the hind legs have more equal engagement it enhances collection and straightness.
                              www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                              chaque pas est fait ensemble

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Oh lord yourself.

                                There is increased medial-lateral stress to the inside hind due to the slightly increased angle of the inside hind, as it has to reach under the barrel, which is shifted to the inside.

                                It ain't rocket surgery. It's basic biomechanics, and it's easily seen on the video.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  There is axial rotation, not dropping of the inside hip. And there is much more torque in LY because they are pushing rather than carrying. The hind legs do not cross, the forelegs so. But there better not be more weight on a foreleg, SI gives greater freedom to the forelegs/shoulders. And because of the bend, the flexion of the hind leg joints and axial rotation is increased. And it would totally depend upon what gait the horse is doing SI in, as to the progressive weighting of the leg.

                                  Torque is rotational force (pushing and turning at the same point), this would be more applied to a western spin's effect on a single hind leg...and perhaps not even then.

                                  The main purpose of si is to be able to get greater straightness through control of the shoulders, this comes from the bending and there the greater compression of the hind legs which in turn gives amplitude.

                                  There is nothing controversial about 4 track shoulder in, it is the degree of bend of a volte (6-8m), something that a trained horse should be able to do. Sf is the degree of bend of a 20m circle (considers 2.5 tracks), and SI is the degree of bend of a 10 m circle (considered 3 tracks). The rules have changed back and forth between 30 degrees for showing, and 3 tracks over the years. Because of the tendency of people to end up w/o correct bend. The greater the bend, the shorter the base of support and the axial rotation.

                                  Imho the video on SI is not proper for a couple of reasons, the horse is onto the forehand, and the outside fore is almost coming around the back of the inside fore because of it. It neither shows good bend nor balance. It really is more a kind of ly with too much bend. Just because it is on 3 tracks does not define it enough.
                                  I.D.E.A. yoda

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Interesting. OK, so now we have axial rotation of the inside hind.

                                    And when axial rotation meets the ground, you get... torque.

                                    Now, will Hillary Clayton please come and provide some 3D modeling? That would just be awesome.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Torques actions is like using your foot to smash a cigarette on the ground, twisting and pushing at the same time. That is different from axial rotation followed by thrusting.
                                      I.D.E.A. yoda

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        That's a good analogy. However, one can experience torque to the knee or hip or ankle without actually twisting the shoe over the cigarette, by rotating the limb and weighting it.

                                        Comment

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