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stars of the past vs today's top horses?

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  • stars of the past vs today's top horses?

    Ok... JUST curious as to who would compare today with these two horses from the "past":

    Reiner Klimke's Alerich
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3Ac...eature=related
    This was already posted on a recent thread, that is what had me thinking about it...

    And my favorite from the "past"
    Nicole Uphoff's Rembrandt
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCv5BxwaCU&NR=1

    And a couple of todays stars:
    The Great Matine:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

    and another example:
    Satchmo
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=zFQi2kfQfNE&feature=related

    and one more:
    Salinero
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MPJGEzI3aIc&feature=related

    And who do you think would compare from the past until today. To me the past horses are so much lighter, and they seem to be ridden a lot "differently." Perhaps because they are lighter and hotter horses?

    Also, anyone know what Nicole is doing these days? I keep hoping she'll come back and compete again, and give Isabel a run for her money... I love Isabel's riding, so don't bash me, but they seemed to have a nice rivalry for a bit...

    I have too much time on my hands...
    Lori
    Fly Teddy Fly!
    Connemara's Rock!
    RIP Reilly Go Bragh

  • #2
    you know actually i don't see that huge of a difference in "quality" (mmm what does that say about our breeding trends?) i think that the more refined horse has always been 'in' for dressage... because of the want of sensitivity. i think the more 'modern' ones just look bigger because well they are BIGGER (Taller) and that does give more girth etc... but i'd lable all these horse as examples of the 'modern' warmblood- the more refined hotter style. .
    Qualified Saddle Fitter with the S.M.S.
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    • #3
      Huh. I think the horses of the past were so much heavier and more sluggish than the horses of today. Lots of horses excelled under men because of sheer strength. Rembrandt kind of "paved the way" for the benefits of lots of TB blood and sensitivity in current dressage breeding, especially for female riders. There is more TB and arabian blood in warmbloods today than 30 years ago, and the horses are on average much lighter in build.

      Also, the sport has changed. A number of GP riders have expressed the idea that their GP Olympic horses would not be able to compete in today's top dressage world because they weren't as "fancy" or of the same quality.

      But today, people also mistake "fancy" or lofty movement for correct. I'm still always amazed at all of the people who say that Rusty was not so great and only the best at the time because Isabell and Anky didn't have top horses at the time. NO ONE, in my opinion, could rival Rusty's half-passes and tempis...but they aren't the "fancy" movements. I'd be curious to see how Gigilo would do today since he was correct but not a fancy mover. brentina reminds me of these horses because she's heavy and not a fancy mover. Other fancy movers were not always correct but looked nice and scored well. Today's movers would have knocked them out of top placing at the time.

      While I don't pretend to *really* know, last I heard, Nicole left Gestut Volwerk to start a family and do other things, and dressage riding has taken second place to that. I think I heard that she still gives some clinics, though. ??? truly, she was a beautiful rider!
      Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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      • #4
        this is a little bit... um... 'out there...' but sometimes I think *technology* colours our opinions too.

        Many of us are watching videos. Videos we can slow down and even stop-motion. And SURE you can pick up the inaccuracies much more easily. DAP, and BTV and all the other alphabet soups.

        Even 10 years ago, but DEFINITELY 20 years ago, it was a lot MORE about the 'overall picture.' Klimke just gave me goosebumps. Seldom Seen too. Graf George never did "do" it for me the way some others did/do...

        In *some* ways I think that video does a disservice to the 'art' of it, if that makes any sense?
        InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

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        • #5
          Anyone know what's happening for Blu Hors Matine these days?

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          • #6
            Just a thought...but apart from the lighter, 'hotter' type, along with the longer stride, gained from the introduction of thoroughbreds into the warmblood breeds..I believe we are seeing younger horses competing at the top levels (the original point of including TB blood lines was to have a faster maturing horse available earlier for a growing market.) Younger horses almost always have more..'oommph'...in their gaits than the older steadier horses even today (think 25 year old athletes vs 40 year olds). More shear physical strength and exuberance vs training and mental maturity. Today's horses are maturing and burning out far earlier than yesterday's horses. The game is following the horse rather than the horse following the game. No real comparison possible. Even in 1982, watching Marzog (at 18?) win at the (then) Dressage World Championships (now WEG)... it was a flawless test, but lacking 'energy', same with Rembrandt at the Olympics (at 18?) in 1992.
            * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
            Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
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            • #7
              Rembrandt was brilliant and light, gorgeous and correct, but I think today we are rewarding brilliance above all other qualities. Judges liked him so much that they would forgive his spooks, and maybe that changed what we considered great in a dressage horse. He WAS wonderful.

              I don't think Salinero's brilliance would have been appreciated pre-Rembrandt - his irregularity would have been much more of a liability in the 80's when Ahlerlich was winning.

              Those videos are wonderful. I had forgotten how wonderful, true, easy, Ahlerich's piaffes were. I've gotten too used to watching horses who only pretend to piaffe. He was the first great dressage horse I saw in person and maybe that's why he sets the standard for me.

              To me, Salinero does not have the same lightness as Rembrandt or Ahlerich, and his irregularity is distracting. I keep wondering if he'll just forget to put a leg down and fall over. I keep thinking I've just seen him on a bad day, but I've seen a lot of performances that have won him a lot of prizes.

              It seems to me that Salinero gets higher marks than Ahlerich or Rembrandt used to, but I prefer both of them.
              Last edited by poltroon; Jun. 2, 2008, 12:24 AM.
              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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              • #8
                Thanks for putting up those links- cool to watch- I loved Rainer- as a rider- Ahlerich was a bit hohum for me...compared to Rembrandt- who looked really great but not quite under enough- but from what I hear - he was one of the first 'deep trained' horses...I loved Isi and Anky's rides and have to say that their precision, collection, true sitting of the horses was amazing...Anky beating Isi on a tad as far as the precision of the music is concerned...Matinee didn't do it for me- it appeared she really didn't like the job too much and I hate watching a horse in apparent discomfort...(I refer to the heavy sweating and swishing tail mainly..) it looked a bit like it was not what she would have liked to do...and to me- that's a big part of the Happy Horse idea...just my 5cents...
                "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

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                • #9
                  Some of my favorites:

                  Josef Neckermann - Asbach - Rom 1960
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok&NR=1

                  Sergej Filatow - Absent - Rom 1960
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0_AS...eature=related

                  Absent, 1952 (Interesting footage -- includes racing and jumping)
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twuk4FDgoAE&NR=1

                  And Maestoso Sabrina II with Jennifer Roth, Intermediare Freestyle, 1990
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txe972g2Pz0
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                  • #10
                    I think the old films suggest that all the past horses were not mostly heavy and clunky.

                    In fact there was a huge variety of types of horse in dressage competitions at all times historically.

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                    • #11
                      IMO Absent was anything but heavy and clunky. He was an Akhal-Teke and very tall and slender.

                      Eileen
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                      • #12
                        Since the breeding program in the 1930's the Russians routinely bred warmbloods with 30 % Akhal-Teke blood and the Akhal-Teke's often had some % of warmblood blood as well and were like improvement sires.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                          I think the old films suggest that all the past horses were not mostly heavy and clunky.

                          In fact there was a huge variety of types of horse in dressage competitions at all times historically.
                          Indeed. I find Matine and Salinero to be much heavier than Rembrandt and Ahlerich.

                          The "heavy and clunky" fashion was I think only the 70's which then spread to the US in the 80's, from horses like Granat.
                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                            Indeed. I find Matine and Salinero to be much heavier than Rembrandt and Ahlerich.

                            The "heavy and clunky" fashion was I think only the 70's which then spread to the US in the 80's, from horses like Granat.
                            I think that virtually everyone is heavier that Rembrandt! He was an anomaly of type at the time. I do think he made a huge impression on the line breeding that was to come, though. I also think he made the idea of riding hot horses "fashionable" to some. The equating of hot-heated but fabulous moving horses with "genious" makes me feel uneasy every time I hear it.

                            IMO, though, lots of the older European breeding stock were heavier than what you see today. All? No. Many? Yes. Line breeding for the evolving dressage market is a wonderful thing.
                            Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                            • #15
                              I think that all horse breeds have been trending toward a lighter type overall.

                              I also think part of it is the modern demands of so many classes over such a long competitive season, with each competition consisting of more tests. I think that schedule is rough on a heavy type of horse.

                              I also think if one compares riding the modern light more compact type and the heavier, longer type, that the modern type is very suited to tests with tons of transitions.

                              But even today not all the horses conform to the 'modern type'. And I don't think the past 'real heavy' type was a common type in the top of competition. Name a whole bunch more than Granat - the others were not of that type, the Asbach horse was very leggy and tall and not terribly heavy, but not the extremely dainty refined type either. Then there was Klimke's horses who were all of a lighter type (1960's up), and horses like Wolfdeitrich (Chammartin) who were very light and compact.

                              I think the proportions have always been about the same - about 15% or less the much heavier type. In the past, about 15-20% very light, refined type, and perhaps now it is more like 20-25%, and the rest a medium type. I think that hasn't really changed that much. And I think it confirms the idea that dressage horses come in all shapes and sizes.
                              Last edited by slc2; Jun. 3, 2008, 07:21 AM.

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                              • #16
                                Nicole Uphoff-Selke

                                Nicole is coming to the PVDA Ride for Life as the Gala speaker and Dancing Horse Night celebrity judge (June 28, www.pvdarideforlife.org).

                                She was just here for a clinic in Boyds, MD and will be hosting a clinic on June 29-30 immediately after the Ride for Life.

                                She just had a baby (her second) and is still riding and teaching. Several wins in Europe through FEI, but focusing on family as well now.



                                On a side note, a few of the horses in the MD area are from Nicole's stable. Barbara Strawson's Prosecco and Roy Topping's horse (if I am not mistaken).

                                Don't forget that she rode Relevant for a while.
                                www.mooredressage.com
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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  thanks

                                  Originally posted by CapitolDesign View Post
                                  Nicole is coming to the PVDA Ride for Life as the Gala speaker and Dancing Horse Night celebrity judge (June 28, www.pvdarideforlife.org).

                                  She was just here for a clinic in Boyds, MD and will be hosting a clinic on June 29-30 immediately after the Ride for Life.

                                  She just had a baby (her second) and is still riding and teaching. Several wins in Europe through FEI, but focusing on family as well now.



                                  On a side note, a few of the horses in the MD area are from Nicole's stable. Barbara Strawson's Prosecco and Roy Topping's horse (if I am not mistaken).

                                  Don't forget that she rode Relevant for a while.
                                  Thanks for the update on Nicole... Wish I could come up there for the clinic... Star struck!
                                  Lori
                                  Fly Teddy Fly!
                                  Connemara's Rock!
                                  RIP Reilly Go Bragh

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