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New and some Conformation help please :)

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  • New and some Conformation help please :)

    Hi!
    I'm new.
    I'm from Australia and have a Fjord gelding named Sammy.
    I had a ginormous warmblood (18.1hh- BIG boy!) however I sold him a couple of weeks ago as he was just TOO big for me and he and I just did not click (awesome educated horse and taught me HEAPS but I didn't get along with him at all)

    Anyway, I have been looking for another horse to buy for a bit now and being a student I have a verrrrry limited budget.
    Basically I want something fairly young around the 4-7 mark (though not fresh from the breakers, that's a bit to green for me!). Not a TB, nothing against them they just aren't for me. And a stocky 14.2-15.2.
    So being in a price range of under around $6000 I am limited and a lot of what I have to choose from are "diamonds in the rough" so to speak!

    I would like some opinions on this mare, she is a 4 year old 15hh warmblood, by Carbine (this stallion - http://www.jaybeefarm.com.au/) I don't know what the dam was, though being only 15hh I don't think she was very big and unlikely a warmblood as Carbine babies are usually at least 16hh and the majority I have seen have been 17hh.

    She is at my instructors place to be sold on. She has spent 6 months plodding around with a 12 year old. She hasn't done any "proper" work, which perhaps is why her neck is a bit icky? I am not very good with the finer points of conformation. I can MAJOR things, like the gross neck, slightly too long perhaps?

    But I just want to know some realisitic opinions on this "diamond in the rough". I posted them on another forum I am on more regularly and no one would actually point out any conformation points, they were only saying I like her or I don't like her, they couldn't actually give me a reason as to WHY they did or didn't :-S

    Please note that these photos are on a slight incline (the paddock slopes dramatically upward) and this was the flattest area I could put her in to take pictures, she isn't my horse so I could not take her out of the paddock and had to pretty much shove her down the slope to the bottom :P




  • #2
    She has a big, coarse head which I don't like; short cannons and a weak stifle. Her shoulder isn't straight but it isn't great, either, I would imagine she has a short, choppy trot.

    I would not look twice at her, sorry. There are lovely Quarter horses and other grade types with better conformation.

    YOu need to keep looking.

    I know you don't like TBs, but here in the US there are some lovely TBs off the track with a good start who are small, 15 to 15.2 hands for only a thousand or two.

    If you want to educate yourself, look at the US horses on the Canterusa.org sites. This will give you some ideas about all kinds of conformation, and you can post those horses and ask about what you see and what others see to start educating yourself better.

    There are recent threads on this board where people talk about conformation and what to look for.

    I find, even at my old age, I really enjoy the conformation critique given every month from Practical Horseman, so get a subscription to that, it realy helps to educate you. See if you can buy some books. Read what dressage coaches and trainers say is ideal in a dressage horse.

    http://www.eques.com.au/dressage/jan...sage_horse.htm


    Here is a really good article about dressage horse conformation, in detail. It may seem , as you read it, that you could never afford such a horse, but realize that if you know what traits to look for, you may begin to see the potential in a previously overlooked horse, because she lacks papers or something, or because she is a grade, but you can find the right conformation in many horses. Just educate yourself about what to look for, and the balance from head to tail you should see.
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

    Comment


    • #3
      I like her hind end, but not much else. The ugly head/bad neck would be deal breakers for me. Maybe if she was an awesome mover with a stellar personality you might consider her. Beauty is as beauty does. But I seriously doubt, given her look, that she is anything special in motion. Is she?

      I think you can do better. But how about just doing dressage on your Fjord? Spending the 6k on lessons/clinics might get you further in your dressage journey than taking on a second horse. If you have limited funds/time (since you're a student) and already have a horse, lessons seem a better use of the $, IMO. Supporting 2 horses will leave you less money/time for education--and education is what really makes dressage horses and riders.
      2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
      Our training journal.
      1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
      I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thanks for that. She has got a bit of a plain head but is supposed to be a decent mover according to my instructor. The plain head doesn't really bother me, it's amazing what a flattering bridle can do for one! I liked her hind end too, but was a bit meh about her front and neck. I don't want a world beater, just something capable of eventually getting to around 3rd level. Realistically I am not a talented rider so I don't expect to be getting an FEI potential horse, I doubt I'd be able to ride one!

        The reason I am buying another horse is because my fjord has some issues with his legs that are limiting. On vet advice and the advice of my instructor we have decided to back off with his workload as he physically may not remain sound in the long run. He's older too, 15 and has had a hard life before I got him. He's my heart horse so the last thing I want to do is break him down, I'd rather have a horse I can still hop on in his 20s than a lame one!

        Comment


        • #5
          Ok it is really tricky to judge a horse by a picture..
          if I would be interested in her, I would inquire about her past. how was she raised?? She doesn't look like a horse in that age should look when it's properly raised....

          That would be a huge concern for me because lack of proper minerals in the growing phase might cause problems later on.

          IMO she might improve when fed and trained properly, but it will take a long time.

          So for me it would depend on her quality of movement, her price and the amount of time I would be willing to invest.....

          The conformation of a horse is one thing but not always everything...
          https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
          https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

          Comment


          • #6
            sorry, ugly head, weedy conformation, would not be expecting to pay more than $600 for this horse.

            Comment


            • #7
              And really short pasterns, also makes for a very jarring trot. I agree, keep looking. You should be able to get a really nice smaller WB for a great price, everybody seems to want the 16.2+ handers!

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't think the mare is nearly as bad as most everybody here makes her out to be... Manni01, I believe comes closest when she says that the horse probably hasn't had the best nutrition in her life. That's the same impression I get, and so with some good feed and training to put some muscling on her, I think this mare will be a good riding horse for the OP.

                Just my opinion.....
                Siegi Belz
                www.stalleuropa.com
                2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would not reject this mare until I had ridden her and didn't like her under saddle. Pictures can be deceiving, in both good and bad ways.
                  Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't care about how her head looks, more about what's in it. What's her attitude/mind like?

                    Her neck's not so terrible… you'd be amazed what proper muscling would do there. I do think she has a nice hind end, but those pasterns are awfully short. I doubt she'd be fabulous at looking "floaty" in the arena, although they do have good slope, so who knows?

                    All that said, and I'm probably in the minority here for saying this, but I'm a sucker for horses who don't look like much, but could be taken, given proper feed, veterinary care and training, and turned into something really special. The crux of the matter in that case though is that you need something with potential hidden in there, so her movement should be surprisingly good, and she needs to have a spectacular attitude. If your trainer says she has great movement, there's a step in the right direction. As for attitude, she looks like she has a very kind eye, hopefully a good sign.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you want something that could eventually take you to 2nd-3rd level I would pass. For under $6k I think you could do much better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
                        If you want something that could eventually take you to 2nd-3rd level I would pass. For under $6k I think you could do much better.
                        Yeah, horses that have potential to do a competent 3rd level are a dime a dozen under 6k. Uh-huh. You all ought to have one then, right?

                        I agree with Siegi. This isn't a horse I would personally buy because I have a bigger budget. However, for 6k I think she may work out if she moves well enough and vets sound. Like a lot of people, a pretty head is important to me, but not if the trade off is getting an OTTB.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                          Yeah, horses that have potential to do a competent 3rd level are a dime a dozen under 6k. Uh-huh. You all ought to have one then, right?

                          I agree with Siegi. This isn't a horse I would personally buy because I have a bigger budget. However, for 6k I think she may work out if she moves well enough and vets sound. Like a lot of people, a pretty head is important to me, but not if the trade off is getting an OTTB.
                          Oh please.

                          Let's not get too excited about how special lead changes and some trot half pass are.

                          Maybe it makes you feel better that you can reach these exhalted heights with your "bigger budget" horses, but while they may not score in the 70's, most of the TBs off the track could do it "competently" as long as the rider is also competent.

                          Lots of riders have third level horses that they have never accessed because the problem lies with the pilot. Plenty of them could move their $2,500 horses up the levels to AT LEAST Third if they would spend some money on lessons and learn how to ride. In fact I think a lot of people could learn a whole lot more and get a lot further if they got a basically free horse from the tack and spent the money on three lessons a week instead.
                          Last edited by meupatdoes; Aug. 12, 2011, 11:17 AM.
                          The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                          Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                          Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                          The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mepat, your opinion is just as valuable to me as mine is to you. I've seen your videos, and the fact that you think DavidG is a good trainer tells me a lot about your judgment. Case closed. I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond to any of my posts. We live in different worlds.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                              Mepat, your opinion is just as valuable to me as mine is to you. I've seen your videos, and the fact that you think DavidG is a good trainer tells me a lot about your judgment. Case closed. I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond to any of my posts. We live in different worlds.
                              I'm sorry, now your world is so superior to mine I should not even be allowed to RESPOND to you, your highness?

                              You're such a trip!
                              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                not much there

                                unfortunate placing of the tree isn't it, on top of her rump;

                                I would ask your instructor to ask her to work, put her on the bit, easy leg yielding, bending and see how, she responds; My fear is that she may simply say "NO,, no can do; her conformation as far as we can tell, does not promise much; she is NOT built like an athlete
                                breeder of Mercury!

                                remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I don't know the market in your neck of the world, but it seems to me you could do alot better for $6,000.

                                  That being said, this mare isn't horrid by any means. Yeah, a plain head, but you don't ride the head.

                                  I disagree on her pasterns -- don't think they are short at all. I think they look shorter than they are because of all the hair she has on her fetlocks.

                                  Not crazy about the way her neck ties into her chest (abit low), but it's not the worst I've ever seen.

                                  Looks like her legs/feet are fairly correct, but hard to tell without more pics from front & side.

                                  As others have noted, pics just tell part of the story. More importantly is how she moves (forget what your trainer tells you, she is trying to make a sale) and what her mind is like.

                                  However, all things being equal, it does seem like she is priced very high for a 4 yr old with her conformation and almost no "real" training.

                                  Here in the States you could pick up a horse like her for $2000.

                                  You might be better served spending your whole budget on a older, more experienced horse...a lower level schoolmaster. Even with a few physical maintainence issues, I would think you are likely to go farther than you would being a green (dressage) rider trying to train a green horse. That can be a very frustrating journey.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by esdressage View Post
                                    I don't care about how her head looks, more about what's in it. What's her attitude/mind like?

                                    Her neck's not so terrible… you'd be amazed what proper muscling would do there. I do think she has a nice hind end, but those pasterns are awfully short. I doubt she'd be fabulous at looking "floaty" in the arena, although they do have good slope, so who knows?
                                    The floatiness could be an issue, but beyond that I prefer shorter pasterns for soundness. Many of the horses with longer pasterns also have tendon problems I'd like to avoid in my own horses.

                                    Short cannons was pointed out as if it were a flaw - again, that's something you want in a horse.

                                    I don't know what $6000 for a horse is in Australia vs. the US. Here, I'd expect something nicer for that price, which has had an apparently better upbringing. Just a hint for everyone - remember it's winter there. I would still expect a $6000 horse to look more like it's thriving than she does.

                                    This horse looks like a different horse in the two side shots. Very interesting. I really dislike the apparent stifle placement in the right shot, but the left side looks fine so I would watch motion as far as that goes.

                                    I'm not concerned about the neck shape. It's not lovely, and ties in lower into the chest than I like to see, but I think proper work and conditioning will keep the neck from being a hindrance. I don't like how the withers are essentially over the front legs - you want them farther back (due to shoulder length) because that indicates a greater ability to lift the forehand and reach with the shoulders. Usually.

                                    What concerns me most, though, is the horse's back. The horse's back in front of the SI region has that bump/dip look of a horse who is having problems in the SI region. From the location of the dip I'm guessing the alignment isn't what you want there - but it's something you have to feel along the spine to know for sure. This makes it physically harder for the horse to collect, and once they start getting that bump/dip along their topline it's an indication of pain or a problem most of the time. I would consider checking the horse out under saddle, and consider having a chiropractor (who is a vet, too) check her out if you like her under saddle. But if $6000 is as much there as here, I'd likely pass. It doesn't mean I don't like her, and I feel she probably has quite a lot of value to her from your description - it's just that I would expect more for the price.
                                    Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Wow heap of replies.
                                      I posted her because like what most people say, all I saw was a weedy scraggy black horse when I was expecting something a bit nicer after hearing what my trainer had said about her before seeing her.
                                      It's interesting to see some people commenting that she may have physical issues, this horse was actually dumped at an auction for being a really nasty bucker. The current owners paid $800 and apparently "rode the buck out of her". But then again she has only been fluffing around with a kid for 6 months so it will be interesting to see if she reverts backto the bucking when asked to work properly as she's with my trainer for 2 weeks of schooling. I also agree she is horribly overpriced and if I did like her undersaddle we would offer $2000 which I thought was generous considering her past and current condition. We would also be getting xrays done as I am determined to not buy a dud after having a dangerous horse ( I had a fancy and very beautiful horse who teleport spooked and flipped on people when he panicked.)

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        fjording, where are you? I know of a FANTASTIC dressage horse, supposed to be an eventer, doesn't really want to jump, but who has it all for $7000. As in is rapidly moving up the grades and is only being sold because of the eventing focus.

                                        You can do better, especially in this market.
                                        Riding: the gentle art of keeping the horse between yourself and the ground.

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