• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

How (and how often) do you use L & L with your youngster?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How (and how often) do you use L & L with your youngster?

    I'd like to hear how other riders use L & L with their young horse.

    My horse is 4, and now knows w-t-c on contact. He's been under saddle since Nov. We do some stretches down here and there to test the connection, but recently I've been working on some more sustained L&L. He has a nice neck set and prefers a low carriage, so for a while I was tricked into thinking he was doing L & L when really he was just cruising around sort of low but not really stretched.

    As an experiment, I decided to try w-t-AND-c really asking him to stretch down and out. He seemed surprised by the request (you want me lower??) but did a nice job, particularly with his canter and canter departs. In fact, his canter departs and canter itself were pretty darn nice in this stretched frame. When I asked him for more connected work later in the ride, he was supple and willing.

    Now I'm thinking more L & L would be good for him. But I'd like to hear how much other riders do and in what proportions. Do you do it every workout at all 3 gaits as a warmup? Do you ever do it for the whole workout? How many minutes do you have the horse in L & L? Any special workouts or figures you do in L & L? (by L & L I mean down and out (nose ahead of vertical), not deep and round). I'd love to hear anyone's input.
    2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
    Our training journal.
    1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
    I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.

  • #2
    My horse isn't super young (he's 9) but he's young in terms of true dressage training and contact. This means he's also just really building the muscles he needs.

    I do long and low a LOT on him. This being balanced and carrying himself, NOT on the forehand. He has a higher natural carriage, so my guess is he and your horse have very different needs. We do long and low warming up every day, and some days it's all we do. His biggest issue is tension, and long and low is all about being relaxed for him - and therefore, absolutely necessary to do every day. We *still* have trouble reaching for a connection at shows due to tension, but my hope is even if it takes two years of correct work at home, eventually it'll just happen at shows, too.

    If he were younger I would still want rides that were all long and low, but I likely wouldn't do lateral work or ride as long if so. There would probably be more walk, and fewer quick and typically difficult transitions.
    Originally posted by Silverbridge
    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Mine is 5, and at our at-home-schooling-peak he's in a first level frame. We start the ride with a connection and I focus on getting him on the aids (lots of transitions, changes of direction, etc - engage the brain.)
      Then I do some long-and-low, which is usually really bad.
      Then I increase the connection, do some lateral work, push a little, and ask for long-and-low again. Sometimes it takes about three 20-meter circles to get the stretch that I would love to get in 3/4 of a circle during a test, but there's no rush at home...
      Then I finish working, and do another set of L&L toward the end of the ride, but not necessarily as THE END of the ride (at the trot, at least. We always walk on free rein, of course.)

      Each time I do L&L, I go for the feel of the back swinging, and try to keep that swing when we increase the connection.

      My horse doesn't have problems with falling on the forehand, though. If I were riding a youngster that had a tendency to dive into L&L, I would probably ask for it at the same three times, but not push the issue too much. Provide the stretchy break from connection, but don't encourage diving.

      Comment


      • #4
        I might be in the minority but....I use long and low ("L&L") as a tool/exercise. If L&L is the right tool to help the horse with an issue they are having then I will use it.

        I don't generally have my horses go around long/low without a specific goal in mind. They might be tight in their back and need to warm up a bit or we might have done some more extensive collection than they are used to and I want to stretch them a bit. This might be a handful of times around the arena or 10 minutes of work. Sometimes it is more L&L, sometimes perhaps more deep than low - depends on the horse and the issue.

        I will test the horses (at any level) in almost every ride to see if they can easily follow my connection and transition to L&L then back to regular work but I don't "ride" them L&L. If there is an issue in the testing then I know something needs to be addressed. Hopefully I've figured that out though before I even do the test :-) but I do find that double checking this keeps me honest.

        If the horse is easily able to do the stretch I don't stay there unless there is some other purpose for being there (see above example). If the horse has minor bobbles in the stretch then I will probably do the testing more often (because the testing itself can work as an exercise), if there are more troublesome aspects of the stretch then I usually try to figure out what is preventing them from being able to do it and address those things.

        Basically I use if they need it but otherwise don't spend much time there. Some horses need a bit more others less. Horses that are really supple in their bodies and good to the aids usually don't need much of it but there are always exceptions!

        This goes for all horses I work with - young/old/green/educated.

        Comment


        • #5
          Chewing the reins from the hand (the german name for aka fdo, aka long and low) is a MOMENTARY exercises which is a TEST of proper ability to be on the bit (have proper bit acceptance). So, first the horse must not only be actively forward and softly chew/be up and open/ and 'accept the bit' (a condition of a training level horse steadily meeting the hand) but also offer some degree of being 'on the bit' (light longitudinal flexion).

          IF the horse is not on the bit then likely the horse cannot chew fdo (open the throat latch as they seek down/out) on a light contact. If the horse is held too short it will likely go down if it is released, but it will not seek the hand outward and with a mobile jaw.

          The exercise is for brief moments (a circle or two) which allows freedom of stride and swinging back with the SAME tempo. It is used in the middle of work a couple of times and at the end as part of the cool down. Free walk on a loose rein is just that, it is not L&L.

          A low carriage of the neck does not allow freedom of stride/shoulders. Such a youngster should go steadily forward, up and very open. Only through figures (lateral flexibility) should they be allowed a small degree of longitudinal flexion. And only as they have a mobile jaw and a degree of longitudinal flexion can they even begin to go fdo.

          Because of the ability to ask the horse to chew fdo through the inside aids (leg/hand) and fill out the outside rein can the outside rein be slowly advance to ANY level. The more the horse fills out the outside rein the greater the degree/control the rider has over the degree of fdo (in any gait).

          MORE is NOT better for fdo. It is a merely a tool, and the degree which the rider can put the horse to the outside rein/keep active strides/the easier the ability to keep the horse ifv and out to the hand to whatever degree (mm or feet) that the horse 'needs' for a particular exercise/figure.
          I.D.E.A. yoda

          Comment


          • #6
            I tend to use it about 10-15 mins into warmup to check connection and make sure horse's back is swinging and free. I do it in both directions as a moment of release in the build up to more serious work. I also conclude with a nice stretch down at the end of a work out, again to allow for a relaxation of the topline. Also, if asking for more collection from a horse than he has been previously accustomed to, I'll use 10-12 strides of long and low as a reward/release for his physical and mental efforts. I know a few people who think they are being ultra-sympathetic trainers by toodling around in long and low for most of a workout, but I personally think that's counterproductive.
            Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

            Comment


            • #7
              Mines 3. Trainer has me LL (actually stretchy, loose neck, nose in front of vertical) probably 4 or 5 times during a ride. Warm-up that way w/transitions, cool down that way and ask for it any time she gets startled or loses focus. We only actually work in the arena twice a week, but then 1 day I usually cruise around the farm and use alot of working walk-stretchy walk transitions. My trainer said it also depends on the horse. If he has one that is always trying to get LL, he'll keep them up more. My filly likes to be up, so she schools mostly LL.
              Do not toy with the dragon, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup!

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thanks for all the replies. Since many of the posts are referring to details about my horse, I'll clarify a bit:

                His neck carriage, naturally, is probably neutral. It just feels low to me since my old horse had a very high natural carriage. His neck set is good.

                He does not get on the forehand during stretchy work, nor does he dive into the hand. He is very balanced--all my trainers remark on it because he is usually balanced for his age. So when he does the L & L work, he steps under himself and has nice self-carriage.

                He is totally zen (not dull, just verrrry comfortable in his world), so he doesn't need this work for mental tension.

                The reason I am doing the longitudinal stretching is specific to what I think he needs. I have been riding him "up and open," doing lots of figures, etc. But, I feel he lacks some longitudinal flexibility--ocassionally he gets short and sort of prance-y in the work (usally when tired), so I want another gear where I can send him out and long. Basically, its just something I want to add to the mix more often to increase his range. These responses are really interesting--so keep em coming!
                2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
                Our training journal.
                1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
                I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think one of the biggest challenges in dressage is knowing what ultimately the root issue is that needs to be addressed and then selecting the right approach to deal with it. That about sums up my daily challenge to myself when I ride - can I find the real issue and what is the right tool.

                  One thing to consider is that a horse might get short in the neck and prancing because if they aren't stepping through enough from behind in those moments. Even a super moving horse behind can have these moments. The question is then what's causing them not to step through and how should the rider address it. They might be shortening up because they're a bit tired and don't want to push all the way through. If that's the case I'm not going to use L&L since it won't fix the root issue, accepting the connection and stepping through.

                  Instead I would focus on exercises that send the hind leg more under and active. I would also add additional frequent very short walk breaks on a long rein in the middle of my work in the next few rides to see if I can avoid some of the tiredness and help them out until they develop further.

                  If the horse was short in the neck and prancing when I first got on or after some strong collection (not likely for a very young horse) I might think it was more from being tight in the hamstrings or back and then might momentarily use L&L to check things out.

                  I don't really "ride" a horse in L&L - no matter how young. How is the horse supposed to know that warm-up is over? They won't understand that they should go one way during warm-up and another x minutes later.

                  There is a lot of variety of what L&L means to people. I believe L&L should have active engagement and contact shouldn't be much different than when not riding L&L, the horse's body should just be in a different shape.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My horse is four also, we don't ride L&L I think its overrated. Mostly what I see around here is loads of people running their horses around on the forehand on a too long rein, and the railbirds oohing and ahhhing about it.

                    I keep my horse slightly in front of the vertical and make sure he follows my hand at all times.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                      Chewing the reins from the hand (the german name for aka fdo, aka long and low) is a MOMENTARY exercises which is a TEST of proper ability to be on the bit (have proper bit acceptance). So, first the horse must not only be actively forward and softly chew/be up and open/ and 'accept the bit' (a condition of a training level horse steadily meeting the hand) but also offer some degree of being 'on the bit' (light longitudinal flexion).

                      IF the horse is not on the bit then likely the horse cannot chew fdo (open the throat latch as they seek down/out) on a light contact. If the horse is held too short it will likely go down if it is released, but it will not seek the hand outward and with a mobile jaw.

                      The exercise is for brief moments (a circle or two) which allows freedom of stride and swinging back with the SAME tempo. It is used in the middle of work a couple of times and at the end as part of the cool down. Free walk on a loose rein is just that, it is not L&L.

                      A low carriage of the neck does not allow freedom of stride/shoulders. Such a youngster should go steadily forward, up and very open. Only through figures (lateral flexibility) should they be allowed a small degree of longitudinal flexion. And only as they have a mobile jaw and a degree of longitudinal flexion can they even begin to go fdo.

                      Because of the ability to ask the horse to chew fdo through the inside aids (leg/hand) and fill out the outside rein can the outside rein be slowly advance to ANY level. The more the horse fills out the outside rein the greater the degree/control the rider has over the degree of fdo (in any gait).

                      MORE is NOT better for fdo. It is a merely a tool, and the degree which the rider can put the horse to the outside rein/keep active strides/the easier the ability to keep the horse ifv and out to the hand to whatever degree (mm or feet) that the horse 'needs' for a particular exercise/figure.
                      ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                      ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I warm-up in L&L (connected long and low, not floppy reins) and do counter bend - regular bend (through the body, not just in the neck), at walk, trot and canter. Throughout the work phase I try and change the frame going from working to long and low and back again, not constantly, but especially if I feel he needs to loosen up a little. I also finish the ride in long and low at the trot.

                        Oh, and he is 8.
                        ~Amy~ TrakehNERD clique
                        *Bugs 5/86-3/10 OTTB Mare* RIP lovely Lady, I miss you
                        *Frodo '03 Anglo Trakehner Gelding*
                        My Facebook

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          just rereading the klimke young horse book for the umpteeth time and in it he specifically states that riding long and low should only be used to loosen the back during the loosening phase - no more - no less. and one the horse is drivable - ie a little bit lazy - as he calls - that we should cease long and low as it makes the horse unbalanced and on the forehand.

                          so once the horse is loosened you ride in balance and not put the horse deliberately on the forehand.

                          we want the horse loose and relaxed ie: lossgelassenheit, but that is just the beginning, and from there we go to rhythm, influencing the horses body, contact etc.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Chewing the reins from the hand momentarily (a circle) should not cause the horse to fall onto the forehand IF the horse is going fdo. It is a test, and like any test, is for information. Every horse which is on the bit imho should be able to do this in degrees to fit its training at all levels, as a conclusion of work, or to test its chewing/opening. It might only be mm, but it key to use within other exercises.
                            I.D.E.A. yoda

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              While the horse is chewing the reins, and stretching down, the rider must still be riding up and forward. Should they not do so, the horse will be able to fall on the forehand.
                              Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                              Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                chewing the reins is different than long and low, yes?

                                long and low - riding the horse with a lowered neck - is to loosen the back and is (as klimke says ) the easy way to achieve a loose back in the beginning.

                                chewing the reins is different, and should be done as a test or at the end of the ride - it tests obedience, the contact, etc. and thus is not something you do with a very green horse - whereas Long and low is, but used only for a specific thing and only for a short period of time - otherwise, you start riding your horse on the forehand needlessly.

                                (i love rereading the classic texts, reminds me again and again how logical riding theory can be

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  wanted to add this :

                                  per Klimke:

                                  " riding the horse long and low brings out the stiffness but when it becomes a bit lazy then we should get it back in balance which is not on its fore hand. We need to make the back supple, and riding long and low is an easy way to do this, but we must remember that when long and low the horse is out of balance, if we take balance to mean the weight is equally distributed on all four legs. The horse will have more weight on its fore hand and in training we work to gradually change the balance, to make its hind quarters stronger so that it can carry more weight with them and give the shoulders the freedom to extend and to show brilliance in the gaits.

                                  The way the rider gets his horse balanced is very important. In the beginning he should concentrate on "losgelassenheit" and establish rhythm, the use careful aids to help the hind quarters come under the horse to achieve better balance. "

                                  etc.

                                  Klimke Basic Training of the Young Horse page 50

                                  i would not ride my current youngster long and low as there is no need. My previous mare had some back tightness and riding her with a lowered neck helped as we warmed up (ie loosening phase) and if she got tight anytime during the ride. but we did not live there - and it was always a balancing act literally....

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    There used to be only one fdo/stretch....down they may indicate many different #$(&# things. One is balanced, the rest are intentional, but intentional what???
                                    I.D.E.A. yoda

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Good thread. I don't know enough about L&L to add a comment, but I do know enough about TB bloodlines to absolutely love your COTH i.d., OP. Cheers!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I own 2 different types of horses.

                                        The giraffe I used L&L for about 6 months - teaching her to come over her back and become engaged. Still go back to this as needed.

                                        The other mare likes to fall on her nose - so use L&L sparingly as she quickly likes to tun it into "fall on nose and run". Interspere L&L with more collected work.
                                        Now in Kentucky

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X