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Radical idea for show organizers/participants

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  • Radical idea for show organizers/participants

    It seems the show entries are down, at least around here.
    I have a life outside horses/childcare issues and it would be very nice to know when I am showing - actually to pick the time when I am showing

    Would it work for show organizers/competitors if the entries allowed the rider to pick a time for the class? First come/first pick of the time slot.
    Yes, you would likely not have your class "pinned" until the end of day, but you would have your score/be able to read the comments. Most people don't need all the ribbons anyways.

    This would really encourage people to enter early, and likely allow enough "empty" slots so same day entries would be practical - just fill in the empty slots. If two riders pick 8:57, I assume no one would have a heart attack if they were bumped to 8:50 or 9:10.

    The judge likely does not care that much what goes on in front (they do not need to see 10 training level rides in a row to stay in the groove of judging?), plus they judge against a standard, not "best of class shown".

    This is just a thought I had. What do you guys think? Would that work? Be a good thing?
    Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

  • #2
    That would never work, that's asking for scheduling conflicts. What about riders who show two different level in different arena's? Or what about riders who have multiple horses to show?

    Comment


    • #3
      It would be convenient for competitors, but there is a very specific rule (USEF) on the books that says you have to run classes in their entirety (with exceptions for riders on multiple horses in the same class) to keep judges/conditions consistent and fair.

      Interesting idea, though.

      Comment


      • #4
        We sort of have something like that for casual shows. These shows are held on Thursday afternoon/nights. They don't count for anything. It used to be that you could just show up whenever and ride in front of the judge when you wanted to, but they've become very popular, so now you need to call quite a bit ahead. However, you can still say, I want to show around 5 pm or around 7 pm. Horses aren't pinned; you just get your score sheet. And you can come straight from the field (no braiding and in schooling breeches).

        Comment


        • #5
          I actually did that for an evening series of schooling shows. I made "blocks" of time, ran each "block" as a class (regardless of test) and let people pick which say half hour block or blocks they wanted. It worked great for a SMALLER schooling show (very informal) but would be impossible for a USEF licensed show. I do suggest people try it for schooling shows - it works pretty nicely.
          You do need to have a judge that is flexible. My tests ranged from Intro to Int I.

          Comment


          • #6
            You might enjoy this:

            http://www.horseshow.com/

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Is there a USEF rule that specifies that classes need to be randomized throughout the day?

              Why don't the shows run from most advanced to least advanced or vice versa. Any predictable order, or at least announce order prior to entries being due - is that against the rules as well?

              As far as riders with multiple horses/multiple rings - if the rider has the choice of time, they would not schedule themselves at the same time for two horses anyways, so it seems like that could be worked out. Interesting that there is a rule against it. I did not know.

              Horseshow.com is a fun idea. Natalie Lamping is judging the dressage portion, so her opinion would not be unworthy, IMO.
              Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
              ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mzm farm View Post
                Is there a USEF rule that specifies that classes need to be randomized throughout the day?
                No. The schedule is usually put together for the convenience of competitors. Often upper level will be early if it's expected to be hot. Other times it's scheduled near the lunch break so the most people can watch. Especially musical rides, which are the biggest crowd-draw.

                There is a requirement that a horse be given at least a half-hour break between tests, so that requires some scheduling ... and ideally the show runs such that competitors don't have to spend all day at parked trailer because one test is early and the second test is late in the day.

                Why don't the shows run from most advanced to least advanced or vice versa. Any predictable order, or at least announce order prior to entries being due - is that against the rules as well?
                Difficult to predict. Rules also specify that judges get a certain amount of break time. It's nicest for everyone to not schedule that in the middle of a class, so if you can fit in two smaller classes instead of a big one, it's a plus.

                Having said that, I think show managers do tend to run shows from least advanced to most.

                As far as riders with multiple horses/multiple rings - if the rider has the choice of time, they would not schedule themselves at the same time for two horses anyways, so it seems like that could be worked out. Interesting that there is a rule against it. I did not know.
                One rider may not, but someone needs to coordinate three or four different riders. And then you have people like Lynn Palm who easily rides 10 horses a day in 4 different test levels and two arenas. Plus she wants to support her students that are showing.

                Horseshow.com is a fun idea. Natalie Lamping is judging the dressage portion, so her opinion would not be unworthy, IMO.
                The web site is a fun idea and has a lot of merit. Natalie can sit in her favorite chair with a cup or glass of her favorite beverage and no other distractions. Presumably she can also sort the videos herself to view the rides grouped by test.

                But if you want to understand how a dressage show actually works, sign up to be an assistant at a dressage show, even with 1 arena. I can't think of anything better than personal experience to get a flavor of the effort. Even with super-duper software support!
                *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mzm farm View Post
                  Is there a USEF rule that specifies that classes need to be randomized throughout the day?

                  Why don't the shows run from most advanced to least advanced or vice versa. Any predictable order, or at least announce order prior to entries being due - is that against the rules as well?

                  .
                  For one ring shows, I totally agree, run them in some kind of order, either highest to lowest, or lowest to highest levels! Too many times, I see the FEI scheduled mid-day, which means a huge break between concurrent classes (and hanging out at the trailer for hours). It is often the one-ring shows where we just haul in for the day.

                  But for multi-ring shows, the only way to make it work so people get a mixture of judges (which most riders want/need for awards and qualifying requirements), and without conflicts, is to mix up the levels. AND - it makes the judges happier, since they get a combination of levels to judge.

                  I find the best way to make it convenient for MY schedule is to ride one test each day - which only works well if you have a horse who doesn't need a "warm up" test...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Equus View Post
                    That would never work, that's asking for scheduling conflicts. What about riders who show two different level in different arena's? Or what about riders who have multiple horses to show?
                    our local schooling shows pretty much do this..... they give folks the slot they want or if nothing requested put the rider where they want them.

                    it really helps riders with many different horses becuase they can ride them all together and then go home

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "There is a requirement that a horse be given at least a half-hour break between tests, "

                      Umm - no.
                      There is a rule that one rider on DIFFERENT HORSES must be given at least 50 minutes between rides. But no rule about a 30 minute break between rides on the same horse.
                      RoseLane Sportponies
                      Golden State - 2012 Bundeschampion & 2014 USDF Horse of the Year
                      Golden West - 2014 & 2015 Bundeschampion Pony Stallion
                      Petit Marc Aurel- FEI Dressage Pony Stallion

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mbm View Post
                        .

                        it really helps riders with many different horses becuase they can ride them all together and then go home
                        Take it from someone who schedules dressage shows, for every person who wants their rides one right after the other, there is another person who needs half the day for either themselves or their horse to recover before their second ride.

                        Same thing with putting the tests in order. For every person that is riding First 3, some will want First 2 to be first so they have a warm up test, others will be using First 3 as the warm up for Second 1.

                        I've been known to say "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The only way you could do what is suggested would be have the rider carry his or her test sheet down to the scribe. Otherwise, the scribe would have to fish through the whole day's pile of tests to find the right one. And then, in order to get the test sheet the scribe would have to come out of the booth or tent before every test and approach a strange horse. Untenable, in my estimation.
                          Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by honeylips View Post
                            "There is a requirement that a horse be given at least a half-hour break between tests, "

                            Umm - no.
                            There is a rule that one rider on DIFFERENT HORSES must be given at least 50 minutes between rides. But no rule about a 30 minute break between rides on the same horse.
                            Oh! Thanks for the clarification. Musta been a convention at the shows at which I assisted.
                            *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              On-site childcare!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yeah, I've seen local schooling shows run like that and it can work really well in that venue, but from volunteering at rated shows I just think it would be a logistical nightmare. Plus I have to admit, I wouldn't want to be showing my training level green bean sandwiched between two lovely third level horses while someone else gets to go after an intro rider...judges are only human and it seems like it's a more level playing field if they're judging the rides in any given class all in one go.

                                It is really nice in a small casual environment, though. I do kind of think more schooling shows should consider it.
                                exploring the relationship between horse and human

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  As a horse show organizer, I can tell you there are many reasons why horse shows may seem to be randomly scheduled to the casual observer. However I can tell you that while some organizers may have different preferences, almost all recognized shows are scheduled they way they are for a reason.

                                  Regarding the rule that classes must run consecutively, there is a very important reason for this: FAIRNESS to competitors via consistency of judging and similar riding conditions. Judging requires the judge to sit at high attention for several hours of the day analyzing the slightest movements during each ride with a great deal of detail. A judge is not going to be in the same mental place at 8:45am after a cup of coffee as at 3:45pm in the sweltering heat of a summer afternoon. Nor is a horse. Would you like to be the person riding your third level test in front of a cranky judge on a hot horse in 90 degrees at 3:45 when your competitor Sally from across the aisle had a sweet 70 degree ride in front of a fresh judge at 8:45? No. It wouldn't be fair to either you or your horse, and it isn't a representative score for placings because you didn't compete under the same conditions. But it might make Sally very happy if she were to send off her entry on the opening date for every show and thereby achieve a 2-3% advantage on every score for year end awards simply by being first in line for a "good" time slot.

                                  Regarding timing of FEI classes, I've heard many opinions on this. Some like to schedule the classes early when the weather is more cool and the footing is more fresh. Others will schedule at noon and say "Eff the horses, I want spectators to be able to see the fun rides." Still others will schedule FEI at the end of the day in an effort to keep competitors on the grounds (buying stuff) longer.

                                  Scheduling the inevitable smattering of trainers who are riding 4-6 horses each ends up being the biggest scheduling hassle, and inevitably prevents the type of orderly schedule (going lowest to highest or vice versa) that might make the day easier to plan out. When you have a trainer riding in T-1, T-3, 1-1, 1-3 (with 3 horses) and I-1, you can see how that would require delicate scheduling. Now multiply that number of rides times 3 and space it out between 2 rings throughout the day. Now do that with 4 trainers. Now look at your time conflicts and rearrange everything.... Wash, rinse repeat until you get a workable schedule.

                                  At the end of the day, competitors get a scheduled time so they know when they need to ride. Giving "convenient" ride times is just not a workable concept if all competitors are to be given equal opportunity within each class. The only way to make it fair is to make everyone equally out of control of their own ride times and make them all ride together in the same conditions.

                                  Spectrum.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Would be VERY nice to pick your own times, but too much/hard to handle for show organizers.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Do show organizers know how many rings they are going to have prior to receiving all entries?

                                      As far as "fair" - well, some horses are better 1st thing in the morning, and some are better when the heat mellows them out. As far as "fresh" vs. not judge - that is always luck of the draw. So it may be that Suzy has a lovely ride at 3-1 at 8am, and Sally's hottie does better at her 3-1 test at 12:45 and a couple of dozing off moments from the judge don't hurt either.

                                      I do not think it is realistic to say that a judge is consitently less attentive as the day goes by, or that footing deterioration happens at a consistent rate, etc.

                                      Really, if people knew how many rings, and which judge is in which ring, why could they not be responsible for scheduling their own rides and avoiding conflicts for themselves? They know what they need as far as time to coach, prep, etc.

                                      I really find it very frustrating when the higer level of the test is assigned an earlier time then a lower one (like 1-3 being before 1-1), that makes no sense to me.

                                      I really understand that show organizers have a tough job. I just do not find the current system "in my favor" as far as time management. And in this economy, I find myself voting a lot more with my pocketbook - less customer service, less of my money allocated to that "product". With a majority of shows depending on AA, and we are not getting any younger as a group , nor have less commitments outside of our hobby, I think show management needs to give some consideration to their consumers in order to keep them coming and increasing the demand for their product.
                                      Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                      ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        you could bid on ride times.... like ebay
                                        keep the class time slots relatively together so as to keep with the rules.
                                        I know I'd pay an extra $10 to get an 8:00am time when by 11:00 it's already reaching 100* out....
                                        www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                                        chaque pas est fait ensemble

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