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Critique my colt

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  • #21
    Originally posted by shakeytails View Post
    OK guys, explain the "weak hind end" thing as opposed to lack of muscle. (No I'm not offended) He's probably not as fat as most 2 year olds I see advertised, and he doesn't get as much turnout as he should (only 4-6 hrs/day) so not as much muscle either. I'd rather have my babies a little thin than too fat- I think it's better for their joints.
    Just to be clear, when I mentioned the weak hind end I was referring to angles and proportions, not current musculature or condition. I agree that heart goes a long way, but the conformation and balance a horse is born with are also key factors. I think you'll sell quicker if you market him according to his true potential rather than something that he only might be okay at. Unless this guy has qualities we can't see from the photos, go for buyers that want a great temperament and a fun project, rather than a "prospect". When I hear "dressage prospect" I think of an animal that has credible potential to be genuinely competetive at least through 3rd level. He's handsome though, and I think lower level amateurs might really be attracted to him, especially if he has good basics and ground manners.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

    Comment


    • #22
      Cute horse! OK Shakey, I'm a big saddlebred fan and a little saddlebred owner who bought a 2 yr. old ASB to do dressage- 10 yrs. ago. My guy was a little larger boned, larger hind end, etc. He tries his heart out but he's simply not built to do much serious dressage work. We play at it. As much as I love the breed I must say a lot of the "old style" larger boned, correct and more powerful hind ends seem to be bred out of them. I would love to find a saddlebred suited to the work, conformationally . They are very far and few between.

      I do think you could call your guy a sport horse prospect for someone with lower aspirations. Most asb's LOVE to jump, love cross country riding, love agility training, love trail riding etc. Just don't expect to get much $$ in today's market.
      Good Luck finding that special home.
      "There is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery." - Charles Darwin

      Comment


      • #23
        OK, here is another two year old

        http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...m/P1010046.jpg

        This one, much like the first colt (who I think is dynamite, btw) is really, really immature. He didn't stop growing until he was six, and he didn't really body down until he was seven.

        ASBs have a who different kind of hind end set up, much of the time- they have lean kind of musculature, from their TB background, and they do not "bulk up" the way some breeds do, even when correctly worked. The show correct musculature, don't get me wrong, but it is a less bulky kind of look, if you understand what I am saying.

        Your colt is adorable- what is his breeding? I love how stretchy and elastic he is. He is a clean slate- teach him to reach down and work over his back, and you will be amazed at what he can do!
        When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
        www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
        http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #24
          where?

          Where is the link? Please repost!
          breeder of Mercury!

          remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

          Comment


          • #25
            FOUND IT1

            It is very difficult to say much from this photo; Is there one withe camera in line with his sholder and his hind legs under?
            Originally posted by Carol Ames View Post
            Where is the link? Please repost!
            breeder of Mercury!

            remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

            Comment


            • #26
              it would be b very dificult

              Lost at C said it very well; the structure of his hind end, angles of the joints do not promise natural ability to collect, engage the hindquarters
              breeder of Mercury!

              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

              Comment


              • #27
                don't use this one

                Get a better picture with hind end under him; he looks terribly unbalanced in his one, very open stifle and hocks; none of this is desirable in a dressage prospect possibly a pleasure/ trail horse.
                breeder of Mercury!

                remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                Comment


                • #28
                  We had a really interesting discussion on another board a few months ago about this very topic of 'dressage prospect' and 'potential to move up the levels'. What seemed to come out of it is that most any horse of any breed that was sound of mind and body and had 3 'good' quality gaits can move up the levels (i.e. past 3rd) and that the limiting factor in most cases are the quality of the training and the talent of the rider. We were NOT talking about FEI young horse champion/olympic hopeful type horses, but just a good basic brain, willing attitude and clean, decent gaits can get respectable scores and move up the levels IF there is quality training and riding. Of course, the better the natural quality of a horses gaits are, the more potential there is (given the other factors..)....no matter what 'wrapper' (breed, size, pedigree) that may come in.

                  So, to come back around to the OP question, what I would look critically at shakeytails is the quality of his gaits, including (most especially) his walk and canter. How does he use that body he has? Any suspension? overstep at the walk? a clean 3-beat, athletic canter? does he use his hocks and reach under from behind?, etc.... Those qualities, almost moreso than static confo pictures, will tell you a lot. He is most definitely a very cute all-around looking horse...to catch someone's eye for dressage, he will need 3 good, quality gaits and that willing, 'can do' ASB attitude.
                  Wiiliam
                  "A good horse is worth more than riches."
                  - Spanish Proverb

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I would certinally try him in dressage, he is very nice. One thing I noticed is although he steps under fairly well with his hocks he doesn't seem to round his pelvis and use his back. I'm not talking collection, just a natural tendency to use his body. His pelvis appears to not be "deeply set" its more croup high. I have a horse like this and its the one thing I wouldn't want if I did it over, even more then the "more obvious" faults. He might be more of a leg mover? Hard to say. He has good gaits, and a nice look, so I wouldn't discount him right off the bat.

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                    • #30
                      Agree with the other posters who don't like this horse's hind end. His croup is very flat, his hind leg is too straight and out behind him. He is not really built to collect. If I was shopping, I would pass on him as a dressage prospect. That said, if I already owned him, I would love him to bits, do some lower level stuff with him, and let him decide what his highest and best use is. He has a lovely expression and a kind eye and I'm sure will make someone a willing and pleasant partner.
                      www.saraalberni.com

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by shakeytails View Post
                        I see what you mean by "out" behind. I think it's because he kept trying to get closer to DH and was creeping forward with his fronts- I just looked at him in his stall and he doesn't look that way, but I'll definitely be aware of it next time I take pictures.
                        It's not just apparent in the standing photos, but in the trotting ones as well. Look at the last and 2nd to last photos--his hind leg is trailing waaaaaay behind him. For dressage he needs that hind leg to be able to reach up and under. It's going to be hard for him because the whole angle of his pelvis makes his hind legs want to trail out behind.

                        That having been said, I think he is super cute and would be a great lower level/ammy type horse. I'd buy him!

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Really? You consider this trailing behind?

                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/6551023...57627223822719

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                            Your colt is adorable- what is his breeding? I love how stretchy and elastic he is. He is a clean slate- teach him to reach down and work over his back, and you will be amazed at what he can do!
                            LOL, I don't have the first clue how to teach him to reach down and work over his back! He's HotHalston (lots of Sultan) x Something About Amelia. He's registered but it's not showing up yet.

                            Originally posted by cb06 View Post
                            So, to come back around to the OP question, what I would look critically at shakeytails is the quality of his gaits, including (most especially) his walk and canter. How does he use that body he has? Any suspension? overstep at the walk? a clean 3-beat, athletic canter? does he use his hocks and reach under from behind?, etc.... Those qualities, almost moreso than static confo pictures, will tell you a lot. He is most definitely a very cute all-around looking horse...to catch someone's eye for dressage, he will need 3 good, quality gaits and that willing, 'can do' ASB attitude.
                            Definite overstep at a walk (I thought that didn't matter?). Yes to suspension, but my idea of suspension may be different than yours! His canter is kinda neat- he's light on his front and just sorta pushes off his hind for a slow canter at liberty(not all the time, of course), he'll often canter smallish circles for fun. If it wasn't so dang hot I'd try to get a video.

                            I added a couple more pictures, one more trotting, one just standing in the mud by the gate.

                            I'm beginning to see the angle/proportion differences from the links you guys have posted. Like I said, I don't think he's the next dressage sensation- just wanted an honest critique.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              He's very cute but he doesn't have the backend to be taken seriously as a 'serious' horse. That said, there's a market for sound, sensible, fun, and attractive- I wouldn't promote him as a dressage horse, but as an all around horse.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by luvmydutch View Post
                                Really? You consider this trailing behind?

                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/6551023...57627223822719
                                Umm... Yes? Not sure how it would be possible for that LH to be any farther back!

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Yes, but he is also reaching way up underneath of hmself with his right hind. In addition, the angle of his left hind matches that of his right front.

                                  It is interesting- I posted the picture of the bay, because he, too, is camped out behind in the picture, and has a fairly flat croup in that shot.
                                  When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                  www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                  http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Judging conformation from pictures can be difficult...and assessing potential on top of that fraught with inaccurate assumptions...this is why it is so important to see the horse in-person.

                                    IMHO, THIS is a much better picture...THIS would make me want to get in the car and go see him.

                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/65510230@N04/6009004801/

                                    From this picture alone, although his stifle still looks a bit shallow and I'd still like to see more development/muscling/maturity in his hind end, I see a lot to like, dare I say even more so than some of the other horses pictured for comparison. He looks uphill, a fabulous front end and sloping shoulder, deep heart girth, a strong topline (short back and strong loin...yes, I said it..in this picture this is what I see), low set hocks ...and from his owners description of his movement it sounds like he has shoulder freedom, reach and some innate ability to canter and sit, and overstep (if that is important?).

                                    A flat croup does not equal an inability to collect. The Lipizzaner is another prime example known for flat croups and sometimes straight or camped out hind leg...
                                    like here:
                                    http://www.horsechannel.com/images/h...Lipizzaner.jpg

                                    BUT, they are ALSO well known for an innate ability collect and to piaffe and passage (go figure). So...while I understand why that 'form to function' connection is often made, in real life, it is just not always true.

                                    and from an expert in analyzing conformation:

                                    "Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD., recently analyzed the American Saddlebred in her Applied Conformation series (Equus 225), and states: “For more than 100 years, American Saddlebreds have been produced for the purpose of carrying a riders weight comfortably and efficiently…I have never seen any Saddlebred horse – even a part bred – who did not readily perform the passage …Most have incredibly comfortable and coordinated canters as well … I think they are the most neglected of all breeds suitable for dressage.”"

                                    ...just saying, though I understand confo pics are a good place to start and 'form to function' is a great jumping-off point, there is so much more to it than angles and making assumptions from static confo pics...how a horse USES it's body is VERY important. So many examples of lovely conformed horses that just don't move great and visa versa...
                                    Last edited by cb06; Aug. 4, 2011, 08:36 PM. Reason: because I can't spell
                                    Wiiliam
                                    "A good horse is worth more than riches."
                                    - Spanish Proverb

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Thanks for posting that- I have read Dr. Deb words before, but they always brighten my day!

                                      And yes, horses can *look* like they could move, and then, not be able to get out of their own way. I think that the OPs colt has real potential.

                                      And the bay colt is a two year old Borealis.
                                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Wow! I think he's dynamite! His neck, shoulder, and legs are excellent. I particularly like the well letdown hocks. Looks like he could seriously "sit" if properly trained.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by luvmydutch View Post
                                          Really? You consider this trailing behind?

                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/6551023...57627223822719
                                          I'd say yep, that's trailing. His hind leg is way out behind. The other leg is forward for sure but he's very VERY wide to avoid that front leg. He's not lifting his front and coming underneath himself enough to avoid that front leg. If he learns to move that way he's going to have problems in dressage. Yea, he's only two but look at his topline for a horse in the mud (horses typically really flex their joints and use their backs in mud) truckin' along in an extended trot sort of trot. He's using his legs and articulating, not his pelvis or back. In my opinion. Could that change? Sure. But I don't think he has the build for third level or higher based on these pictures. The weight of the rider is going to influence this horse, I think. His saddle position is pretty far back on what seems like flat topline. Just won't be easy for him even if he has great try.

                                          You can call him a dressage prospect but those who really want to climb the levels in the sport will likely pass on him. Doesn't diminish his quality or worth, though. The rider who wants him will probably REALLY want him. He's a nice horse, definitely.

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