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Calling all upper level riders and judges. FEI guideline snafu?

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  • Calling all upper level riders and judges. FEI guideline snafu?

    http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fil...01july2011.pdf

    Under MORE SIMPLE: "The canter pirouette is a turn on the haunches in canter around the inside leg ...turn."

    Canter is 3 beat, agreed?

    Under Execution, Fouarge states: "The inside hind leg and outside front leg are not touching the ground simultaneously."
    But in a correct canter the diagonal pair should touch simutaneously. So, which one is it folks, because any horse is going to tell you that you can't have it both ways.

  • #2
    Under "Rhythm in the Pirouette"

    Rhythm in the pirouette
    When the horse changes behind (in cross canter) this is clearly a deviation from the correct rhythm and would never score higher than a 4. If the horse looses the canter for just one stride the mark would be 4 but if more than 1 stride not higher than 3 (falling in a clear walk or trot).
    If the hind legs are almost parallel or together behind for one stride the mark would be 5 but lower if more than one stride. These mistakes can be marked more severely when the pirouette is also very large but more favorably where the rider has taken a risk and made it very small.
    In the pirouette the rhythm appears to be a three beat although with small pirouettes this is almost impossible. There is much theoretical discussion based on slow motion recordings but this should not cloud the judge’s assessment. There may be a slight hesitation but the canter gives the impression of a clear beat.

    Comment


    • #3
      Dr. Hilary Clayton's gait analysis work, based on slow motion video, showed that, even though it APPEARS TO THE JUDGE as 3-beat, tha gait in a canter pirouete is ACTUALLY 4 beat, as the inside hind and outside fore did NOT hit the ground simultaneously. I think this wording is an atempt to reconcile that science with the way it APPEARS to the judge.
      Janet

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Janet View Post
        Dr. Hilary Clayton's gait analysis work, based on slow motion video, showed that, even though it APPEARS TO THE JUDGE as 3-beat, tha gait in a canter pirouete is ACTUALLY 4 beat, as the inside hind and outside fore did NOT hit the ground simultaneously. I think this wording is an atempt to reconcile that science with the way it APPEARS to the judge.
        Exactly. Had the word "appears" been used, I would have had no complaint.

        Comment


        • #5
          A correct pirouette cannot be 3 beats. It is a 4 beat movement.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
            A correct pirouette cannot be 3 beats. It is a 4 beat movement.
            yes, it can. it is very rare but if you look at some of the older footage you can see it once in a blue moon.

            nowadays since what we see and more like little rears than a true canter then yes, it will be 4 beat.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by mbm View Post
              yes, it can. it is very rare but if you look at some of the older footage you can see it once in a blue moon.
              If you come across the footage, please post.

              Comment


              • #8
                i was trying to think where i recently saw footage, because i remember it being posted (i think here) and then someone posted saying " i never thought a pirouette could be 3 beat but i was wrong"

                i will try to remember, or maybe some whiz with a search could find it?

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are probably a few examples in the old days and in the new days of a canter pirouette that actually can keep a 3 beat gait, but they will be few and far between. It's like a piaffe that can keep a moment of suspension in it, as it should if it truly is a trot in place, while also sitting to the degree required. But almost impossible for most horses to keep the purity of canter or trot when truly on the spot and also sitting well.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    so.... this begs the question: do we (continue) to change the rules to suit what is popular now (and more importantly what is SELLING now) ? since a lot of what is scoring well is not really close to the ideal (and no, i am not looking for an argument about it)

                    yes doing dressage well is difficult. but it doesn't make it easier by having rules and then inserting idiotic commentary to try to make what we see winning = what is in the rules ...

                    ie: a canter is a 3 beat gait so therefore a canter P should also be 3 beat - except for those that win are 4 beat so therefore it must be the only way a horse can do it?

                    (hello dbl speak!)

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      This was how horses were once thought to move: http://prints.encore-editions.com/50...o-the-meet.jpg

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by alicen View Post
                        This was how horses were once thought to move: http://prints.encore-editions.com/50...o-the-meet.jpg
                        no, that is artistic impression of a horse. if you read the classical texts it is very clear that what they knew was pretty darn accurate.

                        this idea that before now no one knew how a horse moved is more washing of the facts to suite a POV.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't think that 'changing' rules as nothing to do with wanting to suit what is 'popular' now...or 'selling'...

                          What is IDEAL?

                          I'm with Alicen on this, we know that horses can either do a 3 or 4 beat canter is because it's been photographed/videotaped (Muybridge - 1872). Before that, people thought that the 'suspension' moment in the canter was with the horse's leg fully extended out; as artists at that time were representing it. They were not idiots, it is because the eye/brain is not fast enough to 'see' what is really going on.

                          Should we go back to that 'ideal' version of the canter? Nope.

                          Are we dumbing down the rules in order to please? Nope. We are adjusting the rules to fit what we know now about the horse's biomechanic.

                          People make me laugh with their ideal being 'painted' all over.

                          Thinking that horses can't perform a 3 beat canter pirouette is not new, Nuno Oliveira said it some time ago.

                          Horses are not robots. 'Our' ideal might not suit them...and with all the cameras, everything is now scrutinised to death. Give it a break! What is so wrong with the fact that a horse is unable to do a 3 beat canter pirouette? Maybe if you try do to so, you could hurt your horse because it is kinda physically impossible?!

                          And since there is not much people performing at GP level, I think that the rules and the test are hard enough on both the rider and the horse. If it is so easy, why isn't there more people doing it? (and having good scores?)

                          Why isn't it a good thing to re-arrange the rules to fit what horses are truly able to do? (Now that we have the technology to prove it?)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AlterBy View Post
                            I don't think that 'changing' rules as nothing to do with wanting to suit what is 'popular' now...or 'selling'...

                            What is IDEAL?

                            I'm with Alicen on this, we know that horses can either do a 3 or 4 beat canter is because it's been photographed/videotaped (Muybridge - 1872). Before that, people thought that the 'suspension' moment in the canter was with the horse's leg fully extended out; as artists at that time were representing it. They were not idiots, it is because the eye/brain is not fast enough to 'see' what is really going on.
                            no. this is not true! perhpas that film CONFIRMED what people already knew..... but if you read the texts it is very clear they knew very well about what each gait was.

                            it is really astonishing that someone would think they didn't know!

                            if you watch a horse run you can easily tell where its legs are going.

                            proof does not mean that the fact was not known before.

                            this is very similar to the idea that no one knew the earth was round before columbus. FALSE! this was know back to classical times - but it took technology to get to the point of *verification* before it could be proven.


                            Are we dumbing down the rules in order to please? Nope. We are adjusting the rules to fit what we know now about the horse's biomechanic.
                            we are definitely dumbing the rules down to fit what sells and what is more we are dumbing them down so it is EASIER for people to ride what gets good marks


                            Horses are not robots. 'Our' ideal might not suit them...and with all the cameras, everything is now scrutinised to death. Give it a break! What is so wrong with the fact that a horse is unable to do a 3 beat canter pirouette? Maybe if you try do to so, you could hurt your horse because it is kinda physically impossible?!

                            And since there is not much people performing at GP level, I think that the rules and the test are hard enough on both the rider and the horse. If it is so easy, why isn't there more people doing it? (and having good scores?)

                            Why isn't it a good thing to re-arrange the rules to fit what horses are truly able to do? (Now that we have the technology to prove it?)
                            agreed horses are not robots. but it is possible for a horse to do a visually 3 beat CP - it just isnt very easy!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              btw

                              what do you think of this photo?

                              http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1008&bih=649

                              do you think someone in 200 years will find this statue and think what morons we were to think horses were green pinto's? or do you think they might be smart enough to realize it is called creativity.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                if you read the classical texts it is very clear that what they knew was pretty darn accurate.
                                References, please.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                  but it is possible for a horse to do a visually 3 beat CP - it just isnt very easy!
                                  Visually, as opposed to actually?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                    btw

                                    what do you think of this photo?

                                    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1008&bih=649

                                    do you think someone in 200 years will find this statue and think what morons we were to think horses were green pinto's? or do you think they might be smart enough to realize it is called creativity.
                                    That this is not a 'suspension' time.
                                    That it is a 4 beat canter.
                                    The horse is cross firing. It is common in horse racing and it is said to be a faster gallop than the 'regular' one.
                                    Way to go Secretariat!

                                    I have a BFA. I know what art is all about! But they were trying to depict the reality, beeing creative yes, but not like we do today!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      btw

                                      what do you think of this photo?

                                      http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1008&bih=649

                                      do you think someone in 200 years will find this statue and think what morons we were to think horses were green pinto's? or do you think they might be smart enough to realize it is called creativity.
                                      It's well known that the canter, extended to a racing gallop, becomes a four-beat gait. I'm surprised at you, mbm.

                                      But what's that photo of Secretariat got to do with the green horse statue? Maybe I'm just faint with the heat... but what was your point?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        i am suggesting that art is just art - it may or may not be a good representation of what the entire equine world thinks about something.

                                        in other words: just becuase horses were painted as alicen noted does not mean folks in that time period also didnt know about proper gaits, timing and footfals.

                                        also, some running horses *do* move close to what is in the painting... posted pic of Secratariat as example

                                        the green horse is just an example of art today that is near to real but is also very creative - do you think people in the future will think we thought horses were green pintos based on that statue? (ie that is what alicen is doing using the painting)

                                        i am sick so maybe none of this makes sense to anyone but me

                                        Comment

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