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Science Shows What Judges are Looking At

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  • Science Shows What Judges are Looking At

    Interesting. Note the conclusion about keying in on the hind cannon bones.

    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...essage-judging

    Excerpt:

    Results show that:

    - for movements performed at the trot, judges pay significantly more attention to the front of the horse than to the back or the rider.

    - for movements performed at the canter, judges also pay significantly more attention to the front of the horse than to the back or the rider.

    It was also possible to determine the judges’ visual attention patterns for each movement. For example:

    in the piaffe, judges focused on average 25% of fixations on the hind cannon bone, 15% on the forearm, 9% on the front cannon bone, 9% on the rider’s lower leg, and 8% on the shoulder.

    in the passage, judges focused on average 19% of their fixations on the hind cannon bone, 13% on the forearm, 10% on the shoulder and the front cannon bone, and 9% on the rider’s lower leg.

    in the flying changes, judges fixated an average of 15% on the knee, 12% on the forearm, 11% on the front cannon bone, 9% on the hind cannon bone, and 6% on the hocks.

    in the pirouettes, judges concentrated on average 17% of visual fixations on the hind cannon bone, 11% on the hocks, 8% on the shoulder and the mouth, 7% on the forearm and the front cannon bone, and 6% on the rider’s lower leg.

    Current findings clearly suggest that judges base their assessment of the total performance on their observation of all body parts, but pay special attention to specific parts of the horse. While the front of the horse as a whole seems to provide information that is most useful in determining the quality of the overall performance, the hind cannon bone features very strongly in most exercises as a point of visual focus.
    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

  • #2
    So what's the p-value on the conclusions.....
    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
    Alfred A. Montapert

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      If I remember my statistics correctly, I'll go with the E-value.
      "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

      Comment


      • #4
        I find it interesting in viewing the picture that shows the locations judges look at.
        Question: if you are looking at these singular locations how can you 'really' view the whole picture?
        I was taught to observe the dressage horse by never concentrating on a particular location but rather to take in sections and the whole image. In other words, I will look at the whole forehand or the whole hindquarter, but more importantly I will take in the whole picture and this is when mistakes really begin to appear. Taking in the whole picture will clarify faulty tempo, trailing hindquarters, etc.....JMHO

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
          I find it interesting in viewing the picture that shows the locations judges look at.
          Question: if you are looking at these singular locations how can you 'really' view the whole picture?
          I was taught to observe the dressage horse by never concentrating on a particular location but rather to take in sections and the whole image. In other words, I will look at the whole forehand or the whole hindquarter, but more importantly I will take in the whole picture and this is when mistakes really begin to appear. Taking in the whole picture will clarify faulty tempo, trailing hindquarters, etc.....JMHO
          When is the last time you judged at a dressage show?
          What do you know about judging?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
            I find it interesting in viewing the picture that shows the locations judges look at.
            Question: if you are looking at these singular locations how can you 'really' view the whole picture?
            I was taught to observe the dressage horse by never concentrating on a particular location but rather to take in sections and the whole image. In other words, I will look at the whole forehand or the whole hindquarter, but more importantly I will take in the whole picture and this is when mistakes really begin to appear. Taking in the whole picture will clarify faulty tempo, trailing hindquarters, etc.....JMHO
            The thing is, the human eye can't actually take in a 'whole picture' - it focuses on tiny areas at a time. The eye tracking software I'm familiar with can look at, essentially, how many milliseconds the eye focuses on the different parts of a whole - the brain, then constructs the 'whole' image we 'see'.

            Here's a pretty clear, quick demo of what eye tracking is all about:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo_a2cfBUGc
            Although it's obviously for a stationary image, you can imagine how it would work for a moving one. I think it's a pretty cool idea to apply it to better understand how judges perceive dressage horses (but then I'm a neuro/psych geek like that ). I just hope people won't mis-interpret the results as 'aha! the judges are only looking at the forehand! they are all backwards!' when that's really not at all what the study was set up/able to determine.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm with Applecore and would also like to repeat her last sentence which - to me - is a really important observation.

              " I just hope people won't mis-interpret the results as 'aha! the judges are only looking at the forehand! they are all backwards!' when that's really not at all what the study was set up/able to determine."

              Thank you, Applecore!
              Siegi Belz
              www.stalleuropa.com
              2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
              Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

              Comment


              • #8
                The last sentence states that "the hind cannon bone features very strongly in most exercises as a point of visual focus" so I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that applecore is talking about.

                Unfortunately, looking at the hind legs doesn't mean the judges are judging to the standards in any case.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There is no statement of the hypothesis being tested
                  There is no statement of the methodology used to remove bias
                  There is no statement of the statistical tests used
                  There is no statement of the gage reproducibility are reliability
                  There is no peer review of the work

                  There is no basis on which to conclude that the conclusions are valid
                  Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                  Alfred A. Montapert

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                    Interesting. Note the conclusion about keying in on the hind cannon bones.
                    In piaffe? It makes COMPLETE sense. Why's that an issue? Why so "interesting?"
                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For some reason I keep getting "page not available" when I try to bring it up. I would think the judges eyes would move around. I know as a humble observer I try to take in as much of the overall picture as possible but one has to look at something. Maybe the incorrect movement catches the judges eye as much as looking for the correct one. Does the report specify that?
                      Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Velvet View Post
                        In piaffe? It makes COMPLETE sense. Why's that an issue? Why so "interesting?"
                        Did you not read the last sentence?
                        "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                          For some reason I keep getting "page not available" when I try to bring it up. I would think the judges eyes would move around. I know as a humble observer I try to take in as much of the overall picture as possible but one has to look at something. Maybe the incorrect movement catches the judges eye as much as looking for the correct one. Does the report specify that?

                          It looks like Astrid took the page down.
                          "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well ummm to interject where "angels fear to tread" ;>
                            the hind end (esp the cannons) are the "rear wheel drive"
                            for a horse,
                            any horse
                            all horses

                            none are freed from the laws of mechanics

                            Tamara
                            Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                            I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You can find the same article, and also a link to a more detailed summary of the study, on the FEI website. http://www.fei.org/disciplines/offic...ressage-judges

                              ETA: I can't comment on this particular project because I know nothing about it, but I would point out that Inga Wolframm is a reputable researcher and her previous studies HAVE been peer reviewed. For whatever that's worth.
                              Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                                You can find the same article, and also a link to a more detailed summary of the study, on the FEI website. http://www.fei.org/disciplines/offic...ressage-judges

                                ETA: I can't comment on this particular project because I know nothing about it, but I would point out that Inga Wolframm is a reputable researcher and her previous studies HAVE been peer reviewed. For whatever that's worth.
                                To me that's worth quite a bit to know. Because it means that likely it's published or going to be published somewhere with the numbers behind it - but the FEI just picked and chose what they wanted to share, likely without a full understanding of statistics. (And I say this as someone who only knows enough to ask for assistance of an expert when publishing anything regarding statistics!)
                                Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                                  Did you not read the last sentence?
                                  You didn't point to only the end, you pointed to all of the comments as a whole (at least that's how it read) and the cannon bone is figured into nearly all of them. I just picked the piaffe as an example of where I see it as being even more important, as a it is a directive in how to judge the piaffe.

                                  Mike, sometimes I just wish you'd just come out and say what you mean. A lot of times you post without comment as if in hopes someone will stir a pot for you. Other times you hint at something, but then either obfuscate or just leave the thought incomplete.

                                  I'm (OBVIOUSLY) all about saying what you mean--and just laying it all out there. Maybe you're just afraid my stalkers will start coming after you?
                                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    You want me to be a Velvet clone?
                                    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
                                      There is no statement of the hypothesis being tested
                                      There is no statement of the methodology used to remove bias
                                      There is no statement of the statistical tests used
                                      There is no statement of the gage reproducibility are reliability
                                      There is no peer review of the work

                                      There is no basis on which to conclude that the conclusions are valid
                                      Yes, you are correct with these observations. I agree with you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                                        You want me to be a Velvet clone?
                                        Oh someone please save us from that, or I'll have to pull out the frying pan, Aunt Esther's purse, or (horrrors!) both!!!

                                        Comment

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