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The judging, why is it subjective

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  • The judging, why is it subjective

    July 20, 20007 "Who Should Qualify to be a Dressage Judge? by Lynndee Kemmet [Chronicle of the Horse]

    "The judging conundrum: How do you encourage more objectivity and consistency in judging a subjective sport?"

    This represents exactly what is wrong with the judging of the dressage tests at all levels. Let us examine the two key words used in the statement.

    Subjectively
    existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

    How can dressage be subject when clearly defined descriptions are stipulated in the rules? As a material fact, judging dressage requires that the individual judges use objectivity in scoring.

    Objectively
    being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
    not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
    intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings,


    And your thoughts are?

  • #2
    Why do you care so much?
    You don't even compete...

    So...you want dressage to be totally objective? With no feeling, no expression, no individuality from both the horse and the rider... Yeah, dressage should be done by automaton.

    So bad my horse won't read the rules...

    Judging just CAN'T be totally objective because hey!, we're only humans after all!

    Spirithorse, are you a robot?
    I remember that you favorite picture of the perfect horse was one of a Breyers model...

    Comment


    • #3
      You want objective? Try show jumping.
      "Go on, Bill — this is no place for a pony."

      Comment


      • #4
        What a very silly topic. Any human judgement is subjective even when idiots are involved.
        ... _. ._ .._. .._

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          A silly subject, is a good example of the complacency that is destroying the sport of dressage.

          Every rider of dressage should care about the judging whether they compete or not, because the judging is what is causing the negative changes in the sport of dressage.

          I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dressage judging will never be completely objective because a judge intreprets the rules based on his or her knowledge of the training. With some of the equestrian sports, like show jumping as someone else mentioned, there is no question as to the time it took to ride the course and the count of how many rails went down. With racing, there is no question as to which horse went over the finish line first. But, dressage has no objective measures on which a specific value can be placed, such as time or rails, so can never be judged objectively.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
              A silly subject, is a good example of the complacency that is destroying the sport of dressage.

              Every rider of dressage should care about the judging whether they compete or not, because the judging is what is causing the negative changes in the sport of dressage.

              I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.

              I rest my case.
              Amazed that you have "clients".
              ... _. ._ .._. .._

              Comment


              • #8
                Spirithorse, you're missing the point. No one has said that judging should not adhere to specific criteria and or that it is ok to be biased in the awarding of marks.

                There are two different applications of the terms objective/subjective here, and you've muddled them together.

                Usage 1:
                Dressage judging should be OBJECTIVE - meaning, judges should not let personal bias or preference affect the marks they award. That would entail subjectivity that defies the competition standards. Yes, we occasionally see this kind of negative subjectivity when well-known riders compete, but it is certainly not the pervasive problem at all levels that you imply. You are trying to suggest that judges simply ignore the rules when it suits them... you might learn differently if you competed yourself, or even volunteered with your local GMO.

                Usage 2:
                Dressage is a SUBJECTIVE sport becuase it is judged rather than assessed by uniformly measured criteria that never varies (as in the example of showjumping, how many poles stay up in what length of time). To be considered an Objective sport, the activity has to be measurable by some sort of mechanical means. The only way to make dressage an objective sport would be to perhaps attach sensors to each horse to measure movement and base scores off some kind of pre-set standards.


                These are the two usages that were in operation in the sentence you originally quoted. Nothing in that quote counters your own point of view - you are just trying to stir up a controversy where one does not really exist.
                Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The biggest problem is with the governing bodies not addressing changes that creep in at the top and trickle down. Things that no longer fit the written rules/descriptions of the movements.

                  The rest, usually at the lower levels, is sourgrapes by those who feel that they are a special case.
                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
                    I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however...
                    Oh, come on. Get out there and show everyone how it's supposed to be done. Set an example.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                      Spirithorse, you're missing the point. No one has said that judging should not adhere to specific criteria and or that it is ok to be biased in the awarding of marks.

                      There are two different applications of the terms objective/subjective here, and you've muddled them together.

                      Usage 1:
                      Dressage judging should be OBJECTIVE - meaning, judges should not let personal bias or preference affect the marks they award. That would entail subjectivity that defies the competition standards. Yes, we occasionally see this kind of negative subjectivity when well-known riders compete, but it is certainly not the pervasive problem at all levels that you imply. You are trying to suggest that judges simply ignore the rules when it suits them... you might learn differently if you competed yourself, or even volunteered with your local GMO.

                      Usage 2:
                      Dressage is a SUBJECTIVE sport becuase it is judged rather than assessed by uniformly measured criteria that never varies (as in the example of showjumping, how many poles stay up in what length of time). To be considered an Objective sport, the activity has to be measurable by some sort of mechanical means. The only way to make dressage an objective sport would be to perhaps attach sensors to each horse to measure movement and base scores off some kind of pre-set standards.


                      These are the two usages that were in operation in the sentence you originally quoted. Nothing in that quote counters your own point of view - you are just trying to stir up a controversy where one does not really exist.
                      Well stated. As an English major, I could feel my blood pressure on the rise with the initial, somewhat misapplied, definitions of objective/subjective.
                      A Native Floridian no longer lost somewhere in Clovis, New Mexico, but instead wreaking havoc in Reno, NV.
                      www.theideaoforder.com
                      www.xhaltsalute.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Point is simple........!

                        Here are a few clearly stipulated points not subject to personal subjective opinon. Criteria is mandated!

                        'on the bit' frame stipulated throughout FEI Articles 401 through 417 is not subject to personal opinion...it is a mandated position of the head and neck.

                        Trot is a two beat gait...........Totilas presented a four beat trot..........

                        Canter pirouette is no longer a canter throughout the movement.....the tempo does not remain the same

                        Snaffle bit shall be the primary bit of contact, now the curb is the primary bit of contact

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
                          Here are a few clearly stipulated points not subject to personal subjective opinon. Criteria is mandated!

                          'on the bit' frame stipulated throughout FEI Articles 401 through 417 is not subject to personal opinion...it is a mandated position of the head and neck.

                          Trot is a two beat gait...........Totilas presented a four beat trot..........

                          Canter pirouette is no longer a canter throughout the movement.....the tempo does not remain the same

                          Snaffle bit shall be the primary bit of contact, now the curb is the primary bit of contact
                          That is a subjective opinion. However misguided it may be.
                          (not allowed to post my objective opinion of it's value)
                          ... _. ._ .._. .._

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Equibrit,
                            You are subjective and thats ok with me.
                            You apparently are among those who do not believe in right or wrong, correct or incorrect and this is ok with me too.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The only way to be completly OBJECTIVE in Dressage is to remove the human element. We could film all of our tests and have it judged by an elaborate computer program which can detect all gait irregularities, loss of contact, BTV, etc...
                              A conputer is the only one who will not be swayed by impressive gaits, or feel the pressure of judging WEG or the Olympics, or blink and miss a bad step.


                              Sounds stupid, when you put it like that, doesnt it?


                              I've never noticed that judges score far from the directives. Then again, I'm not competing on the international scene.... Maybe that's what troubles Spirit horse?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by InWhyCee Redux View Post
                                You want objective? Try show jumping.
                                or barrel racing...you at least stay closer to the ground

                                Tamara
                                Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I don't do dressage, but here's my opinion:

                                  I believe a judge should a follow a set of "standards". For example, the horse should get proper leads, nice spots (talking about jumping), nice form, etc. The basics of jumping. Then, they should be able to add their opinion into it as well. For example, does the judge like big movers or maybe a quicker mover? Big horses or smaller horses? Whatever their personal preference is. Like one of the posters before have stated, we're only human. I know if I was judging and two horses had the exact same round, I'd place the one with a better, longer movement rather than a shorter quicker one. Just because that is my personal preference.

                                  I can understand maybe getting angry if something is COMPLETELY ridiculous, but otherwise, don't worry about it. You are paying for their (in the AQHA world) $22 opinion. No biggie

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Why are we feeding trolls out here? Why did SH change alters? On too many ignore lists?
                                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
                                      I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.
                                      Newsflash, ya learn who they are and you don't waste your entry fee riding in front of them. To say all judges are rewarding the wrong executions of the movements is completely warped.
                                      Believe me, there are LOTS of great judges out there rewarding classically correct rides.
                                      www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                                      chaque pas est fait ensemble

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                                        Newsflash, ya learn who they are and you don't waste your entry fee riding in front of them. To say all judges are rewarding the wrong executions of the movements is completely warped.
                                        Believe me, there are LOTS of great judges out there rewarding classically correct rides.
                                        If what you say about the good judges [and I agree there are alot of good judges] is true, then what would be the explanation of the bad judging that is occuring at national and international level wherein the 'on the bit' frame requirement is ignored?

                                        Comment

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