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TBs in Dressage

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  • TBs in Dressage

    Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage? I've actually been told that TBs "can't" do dressage above a very low level, Tr or First. I'm not sure I follow that. It seems it must be a "fashion" issue. I know that in any breed there are horses with better and worse conformation for dressage, but to write off an entire breed? Especially a breed that was created to be an athlete? Looking at old dressage photos I see quite a few TBs. They can't have been that bad.
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp

  • #2
    Poor critters, so many people are biased... my OTTB could easily go through 4th level with his movement and mind, however he's a jumping addict with talent so we're going that route. Have they never heard of Keen or Glitter Please? Ugh, some people.
    Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think everyone thinks that, I just think for the most part you are going to have to look harder for a TB that has bigger movement with suspension, but they are out there. My TB definitely doesn't have that type of movement but I didn't buy him to be a dressage horse, so he is one of those that I would be lucky to get to training/first level and he wouldn't stack up against the big moving warmbloods. I think the other factor is that the TBs can be more sensitive and challenging to ride, so a lot of amateurs with money will go to the big moving warmblood that willl take a joke, it is the same thing in the hunter ring now.

      Comment


      • #4
        He competed quite some time ago, but wasn't Hilda Gurney's Keen a TB or at least part TB? He was very competitive, perhaps the trainer had something to do with his success?
        http://STA551.com
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        • #5
          If you think they're wrong, why not prove them wrong ?

          I'm the owner of a young thoroughbred and find it a total waste of my time to worry about what other people think
          Last edited by Jeito; May. 30, 2011, 02:27 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, Keen was a TB, or at least part.

            More recently I bought a 15 yr old TB who had shown thru PSG, had a piaffe and beginnings of passage. He was a lead change MACHINE. I was doing training level at the time. Threw him in a snaffle and off we went; he was quite competitive for me all the way through 4th level and only a bit less competitive at PSG. The problem there was that he is long in the body and I was unable to get him collected enough to get much beyond 60. He is now 21, and has stepped back down to take care of another rider who is leasing him. I chose not to push the collection issue out of respect for him, though w/ work and more strength from me, it could have been there. I wouldn't have traded him for anything.
            We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
              Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage?
              Laughably so, it tends to come out the mouths of someone holding a high 5 figure warmblood with TB lines on top and bottom.

              There are only 2 breeds I'd consider for an upper level horse
              1. TB
              2. Andalusian

              the brain is the most important aspect of a dressage horse imho. I click with both the above breeds cerebrally. I can help a horse overcome an upright shoulder, I can't fix stupid.
              www.destinationconsensusequus.com
              chaque pas est fait ensemble

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              • #8
                I think it's professional jealousy. I think for some folks who spend 10s of thousands on warmbloods they'd be damned if you are going to accomplish great things with some hundred dollar OTTB for example.

                Smile politely and kick their asses in the ring.
                Paula
                He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hilda Gurney's legendary partner Keen was a FULL TB ( Money Broker - Mabel Victory ); in fact an unraced OTTB that was just too big for California's little half-mile tracks and tight turns.
                  There are big, elastic fabbo TBs out there still--but they are hard to find, even harder to buy (as they are in demand) and require talented trainers to develop them (I do not think many others besides Hilda could have developed Keen ).

                  In Germany, one of the top dressage sires stands at the Hanoverian Verband , his name is Lauries Crusador and he is an OTTB. He produced multiple GP winners out of his first year at stud and has gone on to produce more.
                  Of course, Europeans have been breeding 'blood on top' forever--but the foundation are those solid-as-a-rock, leg in each corner broodmares,LOL.
                  one oak, lots of canyons

                  http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

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                  • #10
                    Yup. A $1000 TB in fact http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...rican-dressage

                    Paula
                    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      a TB in levade
                      Last edited by Petstorejunkie; May. 30, 2011, 10:49 PM.
                      www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                      chaque pas est fait ensemble

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                      • #12
                        I'm a Thoroughbred person through and through and certainly believe they are quite capable of performing well and going up the levels in dressage. However, I don't like to bash other breeds or registries or those who like them. I know that big movers and suspension has become the accepted "type" for dressage, however, I have yet to see a dressage test that gives a score for that. If a horse and rider have a good partnership and enjoy dressage and they are capable, that will go a long way. I know for me, a horse needs to think and ride like a Thoroughbred for me to really enjoy it. But that is a personal preference, to each his/her own!
                        PennyG

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Certainly there are thoroughbreds that are capable of continuing beyond 1st level. Before moving away for college I had a mare that I trained and competed through 3rd, and she was particularly talented at the piaffe. However, thoroughbreds do tend to be sensitive, and finding one with the right build, movement, and attitude for dressage can take some time. It is simply easier to find a horse able to move up to the intermediate levels in the warmblood category, and I think most people who can afford it simply choose to stack the odds in their favor and purchase a horse that is more of a sure thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I showed Cool (registered name - General Putnam) thru 4th level, earning a USDF bronze medal in the process and winning a then-AHSA zone X championship on him at first level. Did a lot of it trailering out of a backyard barn to shows with at-best weekly lessons. This was on 15-20 years ago and I'm not sure how easy it would be now.

                            He was short-coupled, uphill, light in the bridle, smart and largely found the work easy. This was a good thing as he didn't have the finest work ethic in the universe. Great canter and walk, OK trot. It also helped that it was fairly easy to ride an accurate test on him.
                            The Evil Chem Prof

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TickleFight View Post
                              Certainly there are thoroughbreds that are capable of continuing beyond 1st level.
                              Haha, by this you mean 99.9% of them?

                              Most TBs are limited by their riders, not by being TBs. There are a lot of nice warmbloods that will never get ridden past First Level either, and it's not because the *horse* isn't capable...
                              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                irony

                                Hi,

                                I own a vintage 1987 thoroughbred, big bodied, big moving in his younger days. People asssumed he was a warmblood. In 2006 I saved my pennies for a full Hanoverian, and many, many people assume he is a thoroughbred! The modern warmbloods are pretty light, and that comes from ye old TB blood.

                                I LOVE thoroughbreds but IMHO the ones that will make *competitive* upper level dressage prospects are not as easy to find. These days TBs tend to have more downhill conformation and not so much freedom in the shoulder. There are many exceptions to this statement, and as so many people have pointed out, they are the border collies of the horse world and if they want to please you there isn't much they won't do.

                                My TB was totally tuned in when I rode him. Imagine my rude awakening when I first started riding my Hano. He's a luv and mildly inclined to please, but he doesn't listen very hard and if the signals are mixed he pretty much shuts down. Still fun to ride, but a different challenge. My TB is my heart horse.
                                http://behindthebitblog.com
                                Dressage, riding, sport horse blog
                                BTBbrowbands.com
                                Unique browbands for dressage and hunter riders

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have a young TB that I started dressage about a year ago and I have been loving her more than I thought I would. After we got past the 'I want to do extended trot all the time' issue she is a wonderful and smart ride. She is one of those TB's that are built like a tank. She was lucky we found her, she was a rescue.
                                  I love the fact that she is light on the aids without much effort, I'm never tired after I ride like with my American warmblood, and she is always supple. Also love that she is not afraid of anything.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                                    Why such strong sentiment against TBs for dressage? I've actually been told that TBs "can't" do dressage above a very low level, Tr or First. I'm not sure I follow that. It seems it must be a "fashion" issue. I know that in any breed there are horses with better and worse conformation for dressage, but to write off an entire breed? Especially a breed that was created to be an athlete? Looking at old dressage photos I see quite a few TBs. They can't have been that bad.
                                    Perhaps showing them pedigrees might serve education. Here are top TB's in WB registires:

                                    Laurie's Crusader (Hano)
                                    Cottage Son (Holsteiner)
                                    Pik As (Hano) foundation of all "Pik line....Pik Bube...etc)
                                    Furioso (Hano)
                                    Ladykiller (Holst)

                                    Those are just off the top of my head.....there are others. A friend imported a stallion prospect (now a licensed Hano stallion) who was 1/2 TB at the 4th generation.
                                    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                                    Alfred A. Montapert

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Yes, the Germans use TB's to improve their warmbloods.

                                      Here are some pictures of my dressage TB with my trainer aboard. He's the best horse I have ever owned, and if I had the cash to pay for his training, he would go all the way.

                                      https://picasaweb.google.com/stefmix...06575434831714

                                      I should start a spin off thread: show me your dressage TB!
                                      2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                                      A helmet saved my life.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                        Haha, by this you mean 99.9% of them?

                                        Most TBs are limited by their riders, not by being TBs. There are a lot of nice warmbloods that will never get ridden past First Level either, and it's not because the *horse* isn't capable...
                                        I completely agree. At this point there are more warmbloods in dressage, at least at rated shows, and therefore more will have success. Plus when you're intentionally breeding for the desired traits (which happens with TBs, too) you are more likely to get the desired traits. But for the lowest levels, pretty much every TB I have known could do them! (I have known of some who couldn't, though.)

                                        I especially prefer distance-bred TBs, and often those who are turf bred which I think is more regarding bloodlines than turf vs. dirt, as good horses seem to be capable of crossing over.

                                        If you think about it - a TB is supposed to be able to sit on its haunches and push forward to leave the starting gate, and carry itself for the length of a race. The horse has to be able to react quickly to stimulus, and be able to move laterally well enough to maneuver in a tight racing situation. A racehorse also have to have a lot of freedom of shoulder to reach forward at the gallop. Now, a racehorse doesn't need to have suspension or the kind of softness through its body you want in a dressage horse - but the correct riding and conditioning helps develop that some, too. So race breeding may not result in the lofty gaits you need for high movement scores, but they certainly should result in the traits you need to do decently well. My next horse may be a warmblood out of looking for that bred-in suspension, but my current OTTB certainly has plenty of it, too.

                                        My OTTB before he started learning to really use his back end and before I learned to move with him at a canter:
                                        http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/...ee2c0ea7a4.jpg

                                        And as he was starting to learn to push forward (not me riding):
                                        http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5010/...645f355105.jpg

                                        Maybe not an international dressage horse, but he naturally tends to do a lot of the upper level movements on his own for fun. And is most definitely limited by his rider!


                                        Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
                                        Perhaps showing them pedigrees might serve education. Here are top TB's in WB registires:

                                        Laurie's Crusader (Hano)
                                        Cottage Son (Holsteiner)
                                        Pik As (Hano) foundation of all "Pik line....Pik Bube...etc)
                                        Furioso (Hano)
                                        Ladykiller (Holst)

                                        Those are just off the top of my head.....there are others. A friend imported a stallion prospect (now a licensed Hano stallion) who was 1/2 TB at the 4th generation.
                                        Thanks for that! I know I tend to love the Pik lines and actually had identified that as the line I seem to most commonly love. I didn't know that the TB was part of why.

                                        Originally posted by TheHorseProblem View Post
                                        Yes, the Germans use TB's to improve their warmbloods.

                                        Here are some pictures of my dressage TB with my trainer aboard. He's the best horse I have ever owned, and if I had the cash to pay for his training, he would go all the way.

                                        https://picasaweb.google.com/stefmix...06575434831714

                                        I should start a spin off thread: show me your dressage TB!
                                        Nina's lovely! Care to share her breeding?
                                        Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                        If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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