• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Spinoff: Rider's seat

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Spinoff: Rider's seat

    Okay, so I just finish reading ponyfixers unhappiness over judging and inside all the posts is a bunch of comments about a rider who is unable to sit the trot at (I think) Third Level.

    This got me thinking about how many times rider's blame their horse or their saddle for their bad seat. And how people don't always seem to realize the connection between the seat and the rest of their body and how each piece can make or break a good seat.

    I saw someone riding who definitely was off their toes and constantly reaching for a stirrup that was too long, and then they complained that their were in the back of the saddle and blamed their saddle balance for the problem. Hmmm...really??

    If people are truly this misguided in analyzing the root cause of their seat problems, maybe we should start to change dressage scoring a bit. I know we recently increased the collective scoring for the rider's aids and seat, but maybe there should something else that can be done to put more emphasis on it. I mean, if you can't sit, how can you be doing the higher level tests? If you can't sit, shouldn't you be seeking better help with your seat? (I actually blame the instructors for this since it's their job to train the person to not only play with the fun stuff on their trained horses, but to actually help them realize where they need to work on THEMSELVES to improve their riding.)

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Velvet; May. 10, 2011, 11:08 AM.
    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

  • #2
    The score was not only increased, but divided into 1 alignment, 2 effectivity, 3 harmony. Unfortuneatly the description of these things which is usually in parenthesis for each of the other three general impressions was left off. So, for the next three years it (for some reason) cannot be added. Such a division WILL help IF, and only IF, the judges actually do not give a traditional 6, but actually hold the rider's effect RESPONSIBLE for the training effects upon the horse.
    I.D.E.A. yoda


    • #3
      I don't know that a scorecard is the right place to address the issue, though certainly I'm sure it is a problem. I also don't know if this is anything new or a problem which has been around forever. I've seen it attributed to the prevalence of big-moving warmbloods, but I doubt that's all it is, as while it's easy to not sit correctly on the Friesian-x we have and still sit her trot easily, I would expect a judge to know the difference. To me the question becomes - does the judge score based upon how well the rider sits specifically, or does the judge score based upon the results of how the horse carries the rider? I've heard multiple judges say they look at the horse, and only look at the rider to see where problems come from. I have no idea if that's the official answer, though, but would like to think it's about effectiveness not looking "pretty."

      In the specific instance in question, if the rider wasn't sitting the trot well, I would expect the horse's back wasn't lifted and soft as it should have been for the level, so I think the score should have been no higher than a 6 depending how much negative effect the rider had. If the horse was soft, back lifted, etc., I would say it's not a matter of the rider not sitting the trot well, but rather having an atypical style with extra movement which still didn't restrict the horse. I've seen some riders with amazing seats get somewhat half seat-ish on certain horses who just go better that way. This has especially been with horses who were recovering from an injury or coming back from time off, who had the training for a higher level but didn't yet have the strength.
      If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.


      • #4
        Rider effect on training should be placed at the feet (ok seat) of the rider doing the training. The horse can never be better than the effect of the rider. Inability to sit is a combination of a rider without sufficient time on a horse to be able to sit first, as well as insufficient ability to train which causes the back to become rigid and not 'sitable' for anyone (except with really good seats which still shouldn't be sitting such tension anyway).

        In any case both things have to be noted. Poor rider scores, and poor (submission/impulsion=places for the tensions) scores. They are all so intertwined, and all riders (come trainers) should understand why (certainly by the point they are doing medium levels which the origin point of this discussion).

        'Effectiveness' of the rider score is not only the effect of the seat (poor because it is bouncing), but the effectiveness of the trainer to not be able to produce a horse with a swinging back.

        WHY would a person who cannot sit be given a 'satisfactory'/6 for their seat? Which is clearly not even minimal/sufficient/5? It is insufficient/4 to be unable to sit (especially at medium levels already). And the effect of the aids/harmony would be missing...so again, how would that be satisfactory? Or is there now justification (come December) to give a 4.5 or a 5.5 or whatever #$*(&(@#$?
        I.D.E.A. yoda


        • #5
          Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
          The horse can never be better than the effect of the rider.
          chaque pas est fait ensemble


          • #6
            Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
            WHY would a person who cannot sit be given a 'satisfactory'/6 for their seat? Which is clearly not even minimal/sufficient/5? It is insufficient/4 to be unable to sit (especially at medium levels already). And the effect of the aids/harmony would be missing...so again, how would that be satisfactory? Or is there now justification (come December) to give a 4.5 or a 5.5 or whatever #$*(&(@#$?
            I agree IF the rider was so bad, that this is true for the rider score. Apaprently I deleted part of what I was typing when editing my post. I was referring specifically to a score of a trot circle w/ rider not sitting well, and that I can't imagine a horse possibly getting better than a 6 for a trot circle in that case. If the horse is able to get a better score, I think the rider more is "unconventional" than "bad", and shouldn't have such a low rider score - because apparently the rider is still getting decent work out of the horse, and therefore effective.
            If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.


            • Original Poster

              Well, to Paula's point on training, you have to realize that some of the people these days (even at 3rd and 4th) have learned from the Hunter people that you have your trainer do the warm up and then you hop on for you test. How exactly do you judge a horse that is still going well and is a saint to put up with the bad riding? You have to judge the horse and what it is doing first.
              "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"


              • #8
                You judge the training of the horse, and how well it is revealed in the particular test. Certainly a trainer can get on, knock it together, have student remount and steer through a test (but the horse can never remain well trained w/o imput from a rider). But effects of the rider also clearly reveal themselves. It's all judged through gaits/impulsion/submission/rider scores!
                I.D.E.A. yoda


                • #9
                  In the case of the show this weekend, this was not a "big" moving horse. This was a FriesianX that I'm SURE is a rough ride, and possibly this rider has a good seat on an easier to sit horse. The first ride I saw was 4/3 which is why I was immediately incensed because that is the bridge to PSG.

                  But, I am only "judging" what I saw in front of me. I saw a person with 4" of daylight between saddle and arse for all the trot work, sometimes with sound effects to accompany. In the "extensions" the bouncing got bigger, faster, and louder. The rest of the riding was not terrible--there was no coasting on the reins, no swinging legs, etc. In fact, it almost looked like posting, only on every stride rather than every other.

                  But the horse was not soft or through, the riding looked painful, there were no extensions at any gait, and there were no flying changes. There was an ability to bend laterally while traveling forward and sideways, so there's that.

                  I know for a fact that this person, while an AA, does not train with anyone because they feel they are competent enough themselves to train this horse. So there is no hope of lunge lessons, etc., to develop the seat, or learn a proper lead change, etc.

                  As for ME, so that I'm not just bashing other poor souls, I can sit a trot. I have trouble sitting the mediums in my current saddle, but NO trouble in my trainer's saddle. It's not a fit issue for the horse, and I don't think it's "his back is up/it's not up" based on saddle, but rather where the stirrup bars, etc. align me. (I have never experienced such a black and white difference before with any saddles--it's quite eye opening). Obviously if my horse is tense it becomes quite hard to sit--at this show I had one medium (I'm at 2nd with this guy) where he saw something and got "looky" in the middle of the diagonal, and then yes I bounce-bounce-bounced for a few strides before getting him back up. I got straight 7s all weekend for rider, but the "less pretty" medium trots got 6s.

                  But I agree, Velvet, the seat in particular, and position in general, are not addressed enough. I am lucky that my trainer is all about it, but I just spent a week at a BNT and other than my hands my position was not addressed. I'm not sure if that's because he thought the rest of my riding was adequate, or if that's because he's not one that focuses on position.
                  From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.


                  • #10
                    Any thoughts?
                    just a quick note...I can sit the trot well on a lot of horses BUT, there are some that are very difficult to sit...even at third level collection.
                    Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger


                    • #11
                      It is unfortunate the number of riders at intermediate levels that have poor seats. I think it's a combination of not enough seated riding time, popular saddle designs, and people being over-horsed. Frankly, once you start showing second level I think your seat should be pretty well confirmed on whatever horse you are riding. Without a solid seat you can never be very effective at influencing your horse.

                      I'm always surprised at the amount of posting trot I see dressage people doing both at shows and at home. Rising trot belongs in the warm-up, cool down, and while out hacking... if you rarely do it at home how can you expect to do it at a show? People think that "drop your stirrups" means for a couple minutes, when they should really ride without them at least once a week for the duration of their ride.

                      As for saddles... I can't imagine sitting in anything other than a close contact saddle without padding or blocks. Everybody's seat is a little different, and forcing yourself to conform to a saddle that puts you in a specific position must be beyond difficult.


                      • Original Poster

                        Originally posted by TickleFight View Post
                        I'm always surprised at the amount of posting trot I see dressage people doing both at shows and at home. Rising trot belongs in the warm-up, cool down, and while out hacking... if you rarely do it at home how can you expect to do it at a show?
                        Totally disagree with you about only having it in the warm up and cool down. It's mixed throughout the ride to give the horse's back a break. Even if you sit wonderfully, you don't sit the entire ride. You can give the horse a stretch break in the middle of your ride and get off their back as a part of the reward.

                        Does this mean you can't sit longer and for the whole ride? Nope, but you should not be parked on their back for the entire work out/training session.

                        Doing a mix can also help horses coming back from a lay up. You give their back muscles a break--and you can do lateral work at the post. It helps develop their muscles without stressing their back.
                        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"


                        • #13
                          I really can't imagine that someone sitting that horribly isn't negatively influencing their horse. Event though the horse scored well (obviously tolerant fellow), perhaps the scores would have been 10% higher had a better rider been sitting and getting him to connect and relax. I think it is hard to understand the reasoning for scores if you cannot actually talk to the judge, which of course we can't.