• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Do you train in a bit thats not legal?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do you train in a bit thats not legal?

    Watched an interesting program the other evening (obviously promoted by a name brand of bit) on correct a mouthing issue in a dressage horse. Horse was in a fat loose ring and was heavy and inverted and opened her mouth. They change the bit to a gag where the horse was definately quieter in the mouth and lighter(well thats not a shock).

    The difference in how quiet the mouth was though was significant. Trainer said do 4 days a week in the gag and one day a week in other bit (which they also changed but to a legal bit, horse was not as quiet in this new legal bit).

    So I'm curious as to how many of you train in non legal bits, which ones, why and how long before you show you change it out.
    I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

  • #2
    On the day after my horse's day off, I ride him in a snaffle + draw rein (which obviously isn't legal) just really round and very forward and loose. And the next day, when I ride in my double, he's very soft and supple.

    My horse is a 'special case' horse. His mind was virtually blown from his previous rider, who had hard hands and no leg, and believed in hyperflexion but had no idea how to do it (was also a man.)
    So now his mouth is essentially numb to the snaffle.

    I don't know if that counts... But I train a few times a week in a very soft snaffle and draw rein, and on the other days in the double.
    I show in the double.

    Comment


    • #3
      no illegal bits here- but I would question the "fat" snaffle, most research indicates that the fatter the bit, the less room in the horses' mouth, and a thin bit is not harsh, but actually fits more appropriately

      Comment


      • #4
        The WH Ultra (rolling disk in the 'bean') has helped those on the naturally tense/tight back/topline variety for me.

        For showing, would switch to normal KK Ultra.

        Comment


        • #5
          I will often put a dead mouthed horse in a pelham for many reasons. I use the double jointed ones to match the french mouth snaffles they will show in.

          Mostly ride in the loose rings but for safety reasons, to keep them from thinking they can blow through a bit, will drop them into a pelham IF it can be done safely. A few days a month until they no longer need it.
          “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
          ? Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            I know lots of folks who train in ported bits. Ports do not go to the roof of the mouth, they go off the sides of the tongue and allow the tongue to move freely. Lots of horses resist tongue pressure and resent it.

            I have posted a lot about ports so I am not going to bore you here again, but 99% of riding is training and 1% is showing. If riding in a different shaped mouthpiece makes your horse comfortable, why not? You can slip anything in and ride a test.

            There are lots of top level riders who train in ported bits.
            I believe the Dutch made ports legal last year?

            Comment


            • #7
              Even though I don't compete in dressage... yes, I do train in "illegal" equipment. A horse cannot be expected to work at competition level or in competition equipment every day of the year. The purpose of the training equipment it to get him there.
              ::Sometimes you have to burn a few bridges to keep the crazies from following you::

              Comment


              • #8
                I school my horse in gag bit once or twice a month -- mostly for a jumping school but occasionally on the flat. It keeps him light and listening. The rest of the time I ride him in a snaffle.
                Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                Comment


                • #9
                  About two years ago, I was training in a gag bit, I had done so for about 6 months. And then I switched over to a legal bit about two weeks before a show. The.worst.experience.ever! My horse didn't take kindly to the transition. He became stiffer through the neck, tense in the jaw and the halfhalt was non existent.
                  I struggled trying to find the right bit to go back to- the baucher, the WH ultra, plain snaffle. Finally, I went back to a bit I had used several years prior, the KK Conrad shaped bit.

                  Ever since then, I've stayed with that bit and worked on riding him with more relaxation and a more honest connection/contact from his mouth to my hand.
                  "I'm holding out for the $100,000 Crossrail Classic in 2012." --mem
                  "With all due respect.. may I suggest you take up Croquet?" --belambi
                  Proud Member of the Opinionated Redhead Club!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SmartAlex View Post
                    Even though I don't compete in dressage... yes, I do train in "illegal" equipment. A horse cannot be expected to work at competition level or in competition equipment every day of the year. The purpose of the training equipment it to get him there.

                    The purpose of organizations outlining legal and illegal equipment is to promote the CORRECT and HUMANE methods for training a horse to obtain competition performance. JMHO.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm with NorCal, I ride in the WH Ultra with the roller in the bean. Soooo helpful on my horse who tends to get tense and quick. I heard a rumor they were going to make this bit legal, but alas nadda so far. (It is legal for eventing dressage though)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's extremely rare that I would ride my horse in a bit that's not legal. I've always been of the school of thought that you train in the same gear that you show in for the sake of consistancy. A strong contributing factor to my attitude, I'm sure, is that most of my horses have been the overly-sensitive neurotic types, so putting anything harsher or different on them tends to kind of freak them out.

                        Now Stan, my draft gelding, had a very laid-back going easy personality, and could get a little heavy once in a while. The vast majority of the time I rode him in a full-cheek snaffle, but I did drive him in a liverpool. I can see where switching things up now and then might have been beneficial to a horse like him.
                        "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                        -Edward Hoagland

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kelly in NJ View Post
                          The purpose of organizations outlining legal and illegal equipment is to promote the CORRECT and HUMANE methods for training a horse to obtain competition performance. JMHO.
                          If your statement were true than the overbent behind the vertical frame being presented in dressage would not exist. Also, if you statement were true then the GP dressage riders would not be dependent upon the curb.

                          I and many others are of the opinion that variation of equipment is beneficial for horse and 'rider'. Even going bitless would benefit the rider by teaching the rider to correctly have extremely light finger contact. Then when bits are used the rider would not be dependent upon the bits.
                          www.hartetoharte.org
                          Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                            Even going bitless would benefit the rider by teaching the rider to correctly have extremely light finger contact.
                            How exactly is that supposed to work?
                            "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                            -Edward Hoagland

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wayside View Post
                              How exactly is that supposed to work?
                              Well, my old school education taught me to never take hold of the bit except for a brief moment and to never let the horse take hold of the bit.
                              That does not mean that there is no contact, far from it. The contact must literally be consistently in ounces of pressure rather than in pounds as research shows.
                              In SB one must ride with extreme light contact yet the horse is willing to move into the bridle so the rider does not have to be dependent upon firmer rein contact.
                              This schooling does transfer over to the bit.
                              The rider becomes independent of the reins and dependent upon seat and legs.
                              www.hartetoharte.org
                              Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Kelly in NJ View Post
                                The purpose of organizations outlining legal and illegal equipment is to promote the CORRECT and HUMANE methods for training a horse to obtain competition performance. JMHO.
                                So, martingales, pelhams, side reins, surcingles and other training equipment are not only incorrect but "inhumane"...

                                And now I realise I'm crossing the line and poking, but in my discipline, plain snaffles are considered "illegal", yet we train in them a lot.
                                ::Sometimes you have to burn a few bridges to keep the crazies from following you::

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  No, my horse goes most of the time in a KK Ultra. Occasionally, to "switch it up", he will go in a single jointed loose ring snaffle, but its still legal.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Kelly in NJ View Post
                                    The purpose of organizations outlining legal and illegal equipment is to promote the CORRECT and HUMANE methods for training a horse to obtain competition performance. JMHO.
                                    That's fine in theory, less so in actual practice.

                                    My gelding prefered a ported snaffle which is illegal. He was most comfortable in it. Because neither the reins nor cheek pieces on a snaffle are fixed there is no leverage, a port simply gives the tongue more room. Now a legal curb bit IS a leverage bit and unless the mouthpiece rotates does have the potential of acting on the palete. Disregarding for the moment that the harshness of a bit is also dependent on the rider's hands why is a ported curb legal and a ported snaffle not?

                                    Similarly, when I use spurs my first choice is
                                    http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_X1-2501

                                    I like it because I can use it without twisting my ankle. But it is not legal, and this
                                    http://www.doversaddlery.com/product...&ids=730690031
                                    is.

                                    Darned if I understand it but I don't think you can say that my choices are less humane or even less correct
                                    I wasn't always a Smurf
                                    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      LMAO here - I often ride my dressage horse in a soft-wrapped bosal as he has a super-sensitive mouth.

                                      Didn't realize that was being INHUMANE!!! Oh, the horrors!

                                      Quick - someone had best report me to the bit police!
                                      Originally posted by SmartAlex

                                      Give it up. Many of us CoTHers are trapped at a computer all day with no way out, and we hunt in packs. So far it as all been in good fun. You should be thankful for that.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by NorCalDressage View Post
                                        The WH Ultra (rolling disk in the 'bean') has helped those on the naturally tense/tight back/topline variety for me.

                                        For showing, would switch to normal KK Ultra.
                                        Me too. My horse goes in a WH Ultra but will show in a KK Ultra (that I do not own, but borrow from a friend when I need it.) Honestly, right now I do not have the money to buy another bit, I have other financial priorities, but eventually, I will get my own KK Ultra.
                                        ~Amy~ TrakehNERD clique
                                        *Bugs 5/86-3/10 OTTB Mare* RIP lovely Lady, I miss you
                                        *Frodo '03 Anglo Trakehner Gelding*
                                        My Facebook

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X