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Dressage's western cousin

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  • Dressage's western cousin

    Which is closer to dresage western pleasure or reining, I believe it is reining with its rollbacks, spins and other moves, granted there is nothing that touches the sliding stop in dressage, or a friend of mine said it was western pleasure which is the same as dressage only at a slower speed and with western great?

    I do believe that reining is the basic of all western riding, a good trail horse will have an idea of reining.

  • #2
    I learned to ride dressage 1st in a western saddle with the top pleasure horses and reiners in the country.

    HOW? When training the pleasure horses you dissect them. Isolate each body part and the good ones move slow enough to balance and do some amazing collection work.

    Reining you ride completely off your seat and the horses have self carriage in a very up hill way especially as they slide stop it is also very fast and extremely calculated and the pattern is equal to a dressage test in movements expected.
    With this knowledge of taking the horse apart I now how to put them together and also how to help people who cross train with their quarter horses.

    I got involved with the QH after growing up in the hunter circuit because of where I went to college, QH were the only thing they had!

    I found that in the "congress" (the top QH competition) level horses there is a lot of abuse that goes on for the pleasure horses and I couldn't continue watching it happen so I learned what I could and got all my favorite horses sold to h/j people and stuck with the Warmbloods.
    Dacia Peters-Imperato
    www.steppingstonesporthorses.com
    Standing FOR PLAY, Hanoverian Stallion - Style of a Hunter, Scope/Power of a Show Jumper, Balance/Cadence of a Dressage horse. California

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    • #3
      In Morgan world, they now have something called "Western Dressage"... dressage in a Western saddle. So I'm guessing that's closer to "regular" dressage than either reining or western pleasure.

      I think that reining is probably a bit closer to dressage than western pleasure, but I also think that western pleasure, when done and trained well, should not be that different than dressage... just like a properly trained hunter (on the flat) should pretty much go like a lower-level dressage horse.
      If we have to nail on talent, it's not talent.
      Founder, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

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      • #4
        Neither. Western eq used to be, cutting still does. But figures/exercises must have a purpose, which is what reining used to have. Now, on the forehand patterns would be suitable for cutting.
        I.D.E.A. yoda

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        • #5
          Reining would appear to be closer to dressage than WP, but I'd have to say neither is even in the ballpark.

          You do certainly use your seat for both and there is a pattern to complete in reining. But there the similarities end. There is nothing in a reining pattern that calls for bending or correct lateral movement, so horses aren't judged on that.

          The training and subsequently how reining horses ride reflect that difference.
          __________________________
          "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
          the best day in ten years,
          you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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          • #6
            Neither
            www.destinationconsensusequus.com
            chaque pas est fait ensemble

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            • #7
              Barrel saddles are good but the stirrups are too far forward. I picked a saddle that was closest to allowing a nice dressage seat, it's a Tucker Plantation. No horn. But Their "Buffalo" saddle fits the bill with a deep seat and a horn. I found that those saddles have the stirrups more underneath the seat rather than forward like a chair seat. I would never let go of my tucker plantation just for the reason that it has a nice balanced seat with my legs underneath me.

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              • #8
                They just don't have anything in common. I used to think so until I started taking dressage lessons and thinking about it from that side of my brain.

                Reiners are drilled to look for the quit. You want the desire to whoa to be in that horse every split second. That's how you end up with lighting fast spins that can stop so suddenly...or the run downs to a whoa that aren't followed by backing the horse? Watch those riders silently urgently hustle that horse into NOT stepping backwards. Whoa and get back are the goal. This is the opposite of dressage's goal, a horse obediently awaiting go. Halting ready to GO again in an instant. Polar opposites.

                WP? Well....those horses are mighty strong in their stifles, loins. They have to be to create the illusion they create. Intimidated into softness, hen pecked and checked into quiet and steady. Are they 'through the back'...well, in a manner, of a sort, then it all drains out their muzzles into a puddle on the ground. When they have to change the call from 'lope, let your horses go lope' to 'lope your horses, lope with forward progress'- really? You have to TELL these folks to let those horses cover ground- at a lope.

                Apple, meet bruised orange.

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                • #9
                  With any trainer I would ride with in either discipline, both WP and reining are based on similar principles. Lateral movement and flexibility to allow there ability to lift the back/drop the head/slow and still carry. That said, the end goal of a slow, low energy, loose rein version of a stretchy trot (WP) or the tendency to stop in reining as mentioned earlier - both are very different goals, so while teaching a horse to carry itself and using one's seat properly should be present in every discipline - certainly they vary greatly in how work is used to get the desired result. I want to say reining is more similar just because of the impulsion desired, at least as they stand now.
                  If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                  -meupatdoes

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                  • #10
                    My mom just bought a reining bred QH and started up with lessons (with someone very successful in the sport) and I am suprised at how similiar reining is to dressage. Both reining and dressage horses must be very supple, straight, forward and very submissive/on the aids. The level of collection required in dressage is much more than in reining but there are definately similiarities in the training/developement. As far as I am concerned, western pleasure is the antithesis of both dressage and reining.

                    Reiners are drilled to look for the quit. You want the desire to whoa to be in that horse every split second. That's how you end up with lighting fast spins that can stop so suddenly...or the run downs to a whoa that aren't followed by backing the horse? Watch those riders silently urgently hustle that horse into NOT stepping backwards. Whoa and get back are the goal. This is the opposite of dressage's goal, a horse obediently awaiting go. Halting ready to GO again in an instant. Polar opposites

                    See, but you are missing the fact that, in order to do a good spin or slide, the horse MUST be very forward/in front of the leg (and straight...and supple). Lighting fast anything doesn't come from a horse that is taught to go slow or that is behind the leg. Reining horses think GO as much as they await WHOA...again, how else would you get that instant flash of speed for the rundown, or that instant speed on the big lope circle? So yeah, they wait for whoa (and think about putting their weight back onto their hind legs) but they do so whilst staying very forward. And isn't that the same as a top dressage horse? Yes, " go" is a huge part of dressage (but so is "come back" aka the half halt). We just use the impulsion we create out of the forwardness to do different things. They slide, we passage ect (ie different levels of collection).
                    www.svhanoverians.com

                    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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                    • #11
                      Reining.
                      Western Pleasure horses, in order to jog slowly, and do that mangled, freaky slow lope, have every bit of impulsion drilled out of them. NO self carriage as it applies to collection.

                      I've ridden plenty of dressage horses, and a couple of well-trained reiners. I had no instruction while riding, but thought through the , ok, I want the horse to spin by moving his shoulders, so my seat bones would...and everything 'translated' beautifully to the horse, to be ridden 'dressage' and have the output be 'reining'. (Here's a sliding stop, here's a lead change...it was a BLAST!!) There is collection, self carriage, and impulsion in these horses. 'Wait on me', or 'don't anticipate', is also taught to a reining horse as it is to a dressage horse. There is also some lateral work. Unfortunately in my experience, there is also sometimes rollkur.
                      Pure dressage it isn't, but the really good horsemen learn and practice basic dressage movements to get reiners well trained, including lateral work, counter-canter, etc.

                      Western Pleasure horses, you have to take impulsion out to get the 'right' gaits. My late friend, shortlisted for dressage in an Olympic year long ago, trained with Pojhadsky (sp!!), bemoaned having to train any horse who had been taught to show WP, they tended to shut down impulsion rather than collect themselves when being trained for dressage. In her experience it was really difficult to get them over that. And if they've been trained in draw reins to break at the 3rd vertebra, it is really hard to get them properly on the bit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Western Riding. Not just farting around in a western saddle, but the actual Western Riding class. Watching a well trained western riding horse is amazing- the tests require accurate figures, serpentines, flying changes, all done on a loose rein.

                        http://www.aqha.com/Showing/World-Sh...rn-Riding.aspx

                        http://www.aqha.com/Showing/World-Sh...rn-Riding.aspx

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                        • #13
                          "Dressage's western cousin"

                          Sweet Baby Jesus---take me now.

                          However, if for some reason I could only ride western it definately would be the Western Riding Class.

                          However again, not so much the way this class is ridden in either of the two videos posted. I prefer the way it was ridden a few moons ago. The lope was an actualy lope and the posture was not the way it is today.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The fellows doing Vaquero Bridle Horsemanship are actually doing dressage- not some sort of cousin to dressage.

                            Rather than jumping or training for some sort of warfare, though, their finished horses are trained so that you can use a rope to subdue a calf, an angry bull, or even (in extreme cases, but it HAS happened) a grizzly bear (with help, of course).

                            I do admire the horsemanship in the western riding classes.

                            I think the reining would be a lot closer to dressage if there collective marks given. I saw a frightening video of a horse who performed the maneuvers very well, but between them had been trained to put his nose 6 inches from the ground. It was bizarre.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mypaintwattie View Post
                              Western Riding. Not just farting around in a western saddle, but the actual Western Riding class. Watching a well trained western riding horse is amazing- the tests require accurate figures, serpentines, flying changes, all done on a loose rein.

                              http://www.aqha.com/Showing/World-Sh...rn-Riding.aspx

                              http://www.aqha.com/Showing/World-Sh...rn-Riding.aspx

                              I watched part of the first video -- as soon as the rider put his poor horse into that mangled, 4-beat thing they call a "canter" I had to go. The horse looks crippled. Sorry, there is little that I relate to classical dressage in that performance.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Fillabeana View Post
                                The fellows doing Vaquero Bridle Horsemanship are actually doing dressage- not some sort of cousin to dressage.

                                Rather than jumping or training for some sort of warfare, though, their finished horses are trained so that you can use a rope to subdue a calf, an angry bull, or even (in extreme cases, but it HAS happened) a grizzly bear (with help, of course).
                                I think this is closest to the truth if you are trying to link classical dressage and some form of "western" riding. The vaquaro tradition, from which the current "buckaroo" or "cowboy" method of training (think Ray Hunt, Buck Brannamen, et al) sprang is all about total control of your horse's parts, with lateral work & collection being key. Perhaps they didn't use quite as much precision, and certainly not as much contact (although to say there is NO contact is false, IMHO), because they had a job to do. This wasn't for show.

                                I hesitated to post this video (although I believe it has been posted on COTH before) because of the setting, but try to get past it and just look at the horse and the way he moves.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

                                Look at the rider's seat and leg cues. This is as close to dressage movements as you can get with a bull on your butt! And NO, I hate the idea of bullfighting or putting a horse in danger...let's please not get off on that....but just for the sheer enjoyment of watching this horse & rider work together...this stallion truly has all the moves. And this is the sort of "finished bridle horse" the vaquaro tradition and Californio cowboy school strive for. In my mind, there is no modern classical dressage horse who can move any better.

                                So maybe there isn't a modern day "show" equivilent to this sort of riding, but trust me, this level of horsemanwhip is still be taught, shown and advocated with the serious cowboy horseman.
                                Last edited by Kyzteke; Feb. 23, 2011, 07:42 PM.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                                  I watched part of the first video -- as soon as the rider put his poor horse into that mangled, 4-beat thing they call a "canter" I had to go. The horse looks crippled. Sorry, there is little that I relate to classical dressage in that performance.
                                  I have to admit, if I had a horse come in from the field suddenly moving like that, I'd be calling the vet out for a lameness check. They just don't look like they're moving right.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by kdow View Post
                                    I have to admit, if I had a horse come in from the field suddenly moving like that, I'd be calling the vet out for a lameness check. They just don't look like they're moving right.

                                    I'd never seen a WP class before. My first opportunity I was all set to go tell this one lady in the ring her horse was SERIOUSLY off in the rear. Imagine my incredible surprise when that horse won the class!! My friends were rolling on the floor in absolute hysterica and never let me hear the end of it....

                                    But truly -- that is a seriously weird gait.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                                      Neither
                                      I agree with this.........having reining horses that have transitioned to dressage it is very different. Retraining is interesting.
                                      "Ask often, demand little, reward generously"
                                      " Every horse has a chocolate side"

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Haha, I must say, I have gotten several different answners than what I exspected, some of them I never thought about. Allot of the answner in my mind is related how you view dressage; a refined art (the Spanish riding school), the building block/ foundation of English style riding, as an exercise to build build team work between horse and rider, or something totally different that any of these and how that view is compared to how you veiw reining and western pleasure and western riding as a whole.
                                        of course the reining vs dressage video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF6bfJkhPEc

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