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New concept for dressage - 2 judges, one test = 2 shows

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  • New concept for dressage - 2 judges, one test = 2 shows

    Does anyone think this idea (stolen from the Arabian show folks) would ever fly at dressage shows? It is a very efficient, cost saving method maximize our show dollars.

    One dressage court - two judges - each judge is considered a separate show from the other judge. The scores are NOT combined for an average. The competitor rides one test and receives two distinct scores, each associated to a separate show number.

    This method is popular with the Arabian breed shows. The classes are judged with each judge independent of the other. Two sets of awards are distributed.

    For those that say that the scores wouldn't be equal as the view from C is always different than the view from B or E, well yes. It always is. Does it really matter?

    I am wondering if this system has a future at dressage shows? The cost of showing is not coming down. I'm not suggesting that the show would cost the same as with only one judge. The class price would have to be increased to cover the cost of the second judge.

    The value is maximized for those competitors that need to stable and pay for hotel accommodations for each of the shows they attend. Gas in our area is $3.50/gallon today, by summer it will be $4.00 per gallon.

    The value is less to show organizers who rely on competitors needing more scores and more shows to meet GMO and USDF year end award requirements.

    Over and over we hear that equestrian sports are pricing themselves beyond the reach of many that have supported the sports for years. Can we take an existing, working, idea from another equestrian activity and utilize it for our benefit?

  • #2
    The assumption for one judge-type tests is that the judge is at C, and comparisons are made based upon that assumption, so that's where I would see a problem.

    Arabian isn't the only breed show which has been doing this for many years, but with all of them - the judging is generally based upon a ranking of the horses present, not a score to be used for comparisons to others at the national level.

    A similar idea that my GMO is doing more is two one day shows on the same weekend - so you pay stabling once, haul once, etc., but two separate shows. They have two rings running at once, so the judges just switch places the second day.
    Originally posted by Silverbridge
    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.


    • #3
      AQHA has done this for years.

      I don't think it will fly for dressage as netg points out; when there's a single judge, they sit at C.


      • #4
        two words "mileage rule"
        Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

        The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


        • #5
          Love the idea! I would like it. Nice way to get it all done at once, especially with gas prices going up. No mileage rule for us dressage riders.
          "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"


          • #6
            Originally posted by Velvet View Post
            . No mileage rule for us dressage riders.


            To see the Dressage mileage charts scroll down past the jumper charts.

            If I recall correctly, Eventing is not subject to mileage.
            Fan of Sea Accounts


            • #7
              wow. those rules are insane. who came up with that cr@p ?


              • Original Poster

                We host 3 recognized shows a year and the next closest show is 3 hrs away. I had to prove to the USEF last year that one of our shows was not breaking the mile rule. The show in question was 4 hrs away from our show, over several mt ranges. The most ambitious crow could still not have made the journey in under 100 miles.

                Two shows held simultaneously compliment each other, they do not compete against each other.

                This concept is probably more relevant to competitors that do live in remote areas. I been involved with managing shows for over 20 years, from USEF selection trials to local * shows. Shows in remote areas of the country are having a difficult time breaking even. The number of competitors is down substantially; one court instead of two; one judge instead of two; shorter days; tests not held due to no entries; and even in some cases, shows canceled due to lack of entries.

                We all may have our opinions on the matter but I have never seen any data that proves a score earned at one letter is consistently higher or lower than a score earned at any other letter. A consistently high or low scoring judge will be consistent no matter which letter they are viewing the test from. Dressage is an opinion-based sport based on an established standard level of proficiency. I show an FEI horse. C, B, K, H – I appreciate the judge’s opinion no matter which letter it was viewed from.


                • #9
                  It would never fly for dressage, because the results go on to be scored (for year end awards) differently.

                  Suppose you have a really inconsistent horse.

                  At one show, done the way you suggest, the horse goes well, and gets a 70 and a 72.

                  The rest of your scores are in the low 60s.

                  Another competitor goes only to normal (one score) shows and has one good show with a score of 75, and the rest of her scores are in the low 60s (say identical to the first rider).

                  YOur approach would put the first rider ahead of the second rider, even though the second rider cleaerly did better.

                  Conversely, if you have mostly good scores, but at one "double" show you horse has a meltdown, you will be unduly penalized compared top another roider who has one meltdown at a normal show.

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                  • #10
                    How do you have both judges sit at C? When I've scribed there's barely room for me and the judge. I can't imaging 4 people in that little box!

                    As an exhibitor, I wouldn't like that. In an ideal world, all judges would be trained the same, so they should score the same ride very similarly. Yes, I know we don't live in an ideal world, but I like to think that our judges are pretty good. So, 2 people (at C) judging my 1 ride wouldn't tell me anything more than 1 judge. I rather have 2 shows on one weekend. It would give me a chance to ride again.


                    • #11
                      I think I would enjoy hearing two judges' opinions on the same test but not necessarily in this format. Janet makes a really good point about the fairness of it unless all shows were really two shows with two judges and no more one judge, one show type shows. But I don't see that happening!
                      No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill
                      For Hope, For Strength, For Life-Delta Gamma
                      www.etsy.com/shop/joiedevivrecrafts Custom Wreaths and Other Decorations


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        It would never fly for dressage, because the results go on to be scored (for year end awards) differently.

                        Suppose you have a really inconsistent horse.

                        At one show, done the way you suggest, the horse goes well, and gets a 70 and a 72.

                        The rest of your scores are in the low 60s.

                        Another competitor goes only to normal (one score) shows and has one good show with a score of 75, and the rest of her scores are in the low 60s (say identical to the first rider).

                        YOur approach would put the first rider ahead of the second rider, even though the second rider cleaerly did better.

                        Conversely, if you have mostly good scores, but at one "double" show you horse has a meltdown, you will be unduly penalized compared top another roider who has one meltdown at a normal show.
                        And it is different at the breed shows that do this multiple-judging how??

                        Say you have a really good horse (Arabian, Paso Fino, whatever) that usually wins the classes he's in. You have a bad day at a double-judged show, and now you have two 6th places (or a 4th and a 6th, depending on whether the judges agree or not) on your points record instead of the usual firsts.

                        The breed shows don't seem to have a problem with that, why should dressage riders?

                        I've been to Paso shows where one day might be one judge, one day might be two judges, in the same weekend. The same competitors show both days. They don't seem to have a problem with one day counting more times than another.

                        It just takes longer to announce the winners when the judges don't agree and you have to go through the placings multiple times instead of handing the riders multiples of the same-placed ribbons.


                        • #13
                          Sorry, but that seems so stupid. If I pay to ride two tests, I want to ride two tests. I don't want to do any "two birds with one stone" crap when I'm trying to get my horse into the ring and ride the tests I need to qualify, get mileage, whatever.


                          • #14
                            I had been thinking about this for the local schooling shows, but slightly different. Most of the people only do up to 1st level with a few 2nd level tests, so I was thinking in the am 1 judge could do say the intro and 2nd level tests, and in a second ring judge 2 could do the training and 1st level tests, and then switch for the afternoon.

                            that way someone could do training 2 and 3 twice under 2 judges in one day. I know some people think that is a lot for the horse, but personally I think 4 training level tests in one day is more than doable for my horse and I. what do people think of this?


                            • #15
                              Is this about point chasing? I cannot see any other reason to want seperate placings for seperate judges.

                              If I recall correctly for breed shows, the competitor has to pay for the class per judge, so if that is the case with this plan, then it would make showing more expensive not less so. It would be annoying to be a non-point chaser but to have to pay for double judging regardless.

                              TBdressage, your idea is interesting, but for me, 4 tests in one day would be a lot. It would be nice to be able to test under two different judges at the same show though. Dissappointing to go to a multi judge show, and not be seen by all the judges at some point.
                              Freeing worms from cans everywhere!


                              • #16
                                I think that the idea is that it would be cheaper as far as travel money, travel time, stabling ect.

                                For me it is sort of about point chasing, I know its just a local club but I really want to submit scores for their schooling show year end awards (hey we can't all have olympic goals right?), but you have to have scores from 2 different judges, and there are only 3 shows. So if you have something the weekend of one show and can't make it, and then you have a bad show, you have nothing to submit. So if you held two shows in one day, it would be cheaper in gas, you wouldn't have to stay over, and it would only waste one summer weekend day, since you know some 2nd cousin who would be horribly offended if you don't show up, will be getting married on one show weekend-its a given. and since I think last year I counted 5 1st level riders and 1 second level rider, thats why I thought that riding the same 2 tests twice in one day isn't a lot for most horses.


                                • #17
                                  the rules restrict horse going to three tests per day. If you are truly warming up and performing at peak, this is more than enough for a horse.

                                  the rule was made for a reason. I saw its need at an Arab show Dressage division where the same horse appeared for easily 7 or 8 rides. It was truly dragging at the end and the scores got lower and lower.

                                  Most shows here are trying the two shows one weekend format. I think a lot of people are happy with lowering the impact of driving and multiple weekends of shows. The opportunity to get 2 Q scores in one weekend is a huge plus.

                                  When working a show with multiple judges, show organizers do attempt to get riders in front of multiple judges over the course of their classes. Savvy managers understand that it is prudent to not have the same judge covering shows in the same area. One year over the course of 5 shows half my rides were judged by the same judge. I was lucky to get Q rides in front of different judges ( just barely)

                                  The multi judge one ring = two shows would require the re writing of the rules too far reaching. There is already a suitable option in place which results in convenience to the rider , an easier impact on the horse and a true evaluation of the riders scores.

                                  In most cases, the same riders would get the ribbons from both judges. It is not likely to spread the wealth.

                                  It would be impossible to get two judges in one booth together. You simply cannot effectively communicate to a scribe and expect that concentration and accuracy ( and truth?) would happen under such circumstance.

                                  The biggest issue is judges sitting at C / E-B a normal configuration, see the ride from two different perspectives. It is not unusual for scores to range about 5%. The averaging of score tempers this effect. If each score stood alone it could , potentially drop someone year end average quite a bit.
                                  -- * > hoopoe
                                  Procrastinate NOW
                                  Introverted Since 1957


                                  • #18
                                    I think it is very doable. The judges both sit at C, sharing the c.l., their scribes to sit to the outside of each judge. The scribes must be very attentive and have very good hearing.

                                    The key to this is: if your horse is not going well, you have to get through the ride and take your score. Or know when to excuse yourself and take the loss of no score --which could be a benefit in some circumstances.


                                    • #19
                                      In Germany for a lot of the lower level classes, there are a number of horses in the ring together all performing the test at the same time! One judge!!

                                      My mum is a dressage and eventing judge and I think looking at it from her perspective, it would be difficult to have both judges at C as obviously they should not be able to hear each other, so I don't know how you would get around that one.

                                      I suppose it could work having one judge at C and the other at E as at Championships/ higher levels etc., - they will have different perspectives on the test certainly, but I wouldn't neccessarily see that as a bad thing.


                                      • #20
                                        Having scribed from E alot. It is amazing how many points in a test people lose by being inaccurate.
                                        The halts at X, reinbacks at X (in 2nd level), simple changes at X(in 2nd level), lengthenings that don't start or finish at the letters and lose energy and focus along the way.