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Poll position and the training scale.

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  • Poll position and the training scale.

    Spinning off from another thread, where is poll position on the training scale?

    On another thread, I see horses that are rhythmic, relaxed, straight and collected, but the discussion has centered on poll position.

    Where does it fall?

  • #2
    IMHO, poll position is the result of degree of collection. For any individual horse, the more collected the horse is, the higher the poll will be. It's harder to compare between horses though since conformation contributes to some degree.

    Comment


    • #3
      While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

      I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


      I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

      The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
      http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg
      Originally posted by Silverbridge
      If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by netg View Post
        While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

        I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


        I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

        The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
        http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

        Tsss Tsss
        Put up or shut up!
        Put some photos of you ridding seven cavalletti.
        I dare say you cannot.

        Comment


        • #5



          I liked your "big cavaletti" photo!


          Unfortunately, my cavaletti photo only shows legs and incorrectly wrapped polos.

          http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/...372a4966eb.jpg
          Originally posted by Silverbridge
          If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks!

            Nice legs! and love the green color of your polos!!!

            As for the incorrect wrapping, polos are unsafe for your horse so you better get rid of them!

            Better have hollow back than heat build up in your horse's legs!
            Last edited by AlterBy; Jan. 11, 2011, 04:35 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Isn't the poll relative to the "sitting" at all levels?
              Cowgirl Up!

              Comment


              • #8
                Article 401-5
                In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

                Article 417-c:
                The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

                There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

                In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

                Now as for my cavalletti image.
                Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.
                www.hartetoharte.org
                Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Really, who is he trying to convince? Himself?

                  No wonder most people have put him on 'ignore'.

                  Why not treat myself and do the same? Immediate relief! Pfiou. Beu-bye!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlterBy View Post
                    Really, who is he trying to convince? Himself?

                    No wonder most people have put him on 'ignore'.

                    Why not treat myself and do the same? Immediate relief! Pfiou. Beu-bye!

                    Yeppee..........GOOD BYE
                    www.hartetoharte.org
                    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                      Article 417-c:
                      The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation.

                      There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it.

                      I'm not sure how to quote here but WHAT????
                      Cowgirl Up!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by netg View Post
                        While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

                        I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


                        I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

                        The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
                        http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg
                        Holy chair seat, Batman!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                          Article 401-5
                          In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

                          Article 417-c:
                          The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

                          There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

                          In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

                          Now as for my cavalletti image.
                          Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.

                          Who analyzed it?

                          As you pointed out on the other thread, analysis here is all wrong.

                          What I see in the picture is a rider in a chair seat (so far back he looks almost off the back of the cantle), with feet thrust all the way through the irons, (very dangerous by the way) hunched, hands in his lap, horse hollow, off the bit and a running martingale adjusted very low to the chest to keep the horses head down.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                            Article 401-5
                            In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

                            Article 417-c:
                            The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

                            There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

                            In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

                            Now as for my cavalletti image.
                            Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.
                            Again, where is this on the TS?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              this

                              Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                              IMHO, poll position is the result of degree of collection. For any individual horse, the more collected the horse is, the higher the poll will be. It's harder to compare between horses though since conformation contributes to some degree.
                              Poll position will naturally fall into place as a result of the horse's level of collection. When the horse attains the highest level of collection, its poll will naturally be the highest point - until then, the poll will be various degrees below. If you are riding the horse back to front, you don't worry about the poll; it comes with the natural progression of collection.

                              That is not to say whatsoever that a horse who has its poll as the highest point is collected, but that when they ARE collected, their poll position will reflect their degree of reflection.

                              ETA: As for the cavelleti photo, it is pretty blurry for analysis. That said, I dislike the topline muscling (ie, over the C-vertebrae, lack of muscling in front of the withers), the horse's head appears to be held in place via the martingale and thus (as is apparent) he is NOT lifting from the base of his neck, the hock is NOT flexed/bent with loading, and he appears croup-high.

                              Spirithorse, I actually agree with you for the most part, except with your analysis as it pertains to the cavelleti photo. At first glance the horse's neck and body position does appear to be perhaps optimal however upon closer inspection it is obvious the horse is NOT working efficiently or with any degree of collection.

                              I think difficulty and thus degree of collection through a horse's training is conformation-dependent, which relates to the highest degree of collection a horse might be able to achieve and, as mentioned, the progression of a horse's collection throughout its training (ie, whether fast or slow, etc).

                              OP I do not think one can pinpoint poll position according to the Training Scale because it is dependent upon the individual horse. Obviously poll-highest will be what occurs in the horse who is at the height of collection no matter its gait or movement (to an extent), however that is a VERY high level of collection. As the horse progresses from non-collected (bottom of the TS) to the highest degree of collection possible however, the poll will vary and depend upon the individual horse's ability, conformation, and training level within the TS and each level of the TS.
                              Last edited by naturalequus; Jan. 11, 2011, 08:31 PM.
                              ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                              ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                The thread that inspired this one had loads of photos/videos of horses who were rhythmic, relaxed, forward and collected.

                                Can we give credit where it is due, please? Must we continue to major in minors?

                                Okay, so the score is 8 instead of a 10. 8 is still damn good riding!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Carol O View Post
                                  Okay, so the score is 8 instead of a 10. 8 is still damn good riding!
                                  May I inquire how it could be an 8 if the prequistes required for the head and neck are not correct? This incorrectness manisfests negatively into the gaits and movements, that is why it is required.
                                  www.hartetoharte.org
                                  Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Continue to ignore.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      What am I missing here? Is someone saying the photo of the person going over the cavaletti is "correct"? Looks horrible to me.
                                      Cowgirl Up!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Carol O View Post
                                        Again, where is this on the TS?
                                        the training scale was german to start with and isn't used in many other schools. it is not the same as the rules.

                                        Comment

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