• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Shutting down communication?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by quietann View Post
    I do wonder why (some) people are so determined to go after dressage. Not that it's perfect, but... look at some of the bits used in other disciplines, while dressage snaffles are generally not harsh at all; if one shows, they are not allowed to be (e.g. no ported snaffles allowed!) Look at the corkscrews, twisted wires, super long-shanked curbs, curbs with sharp extensions that dig into a horse's tongue, bits made of bicycle chains etc.! (I wandered into a tack store trailer at a Morgan show recently, and there was not ONE legal dressage snaffle in the place. Most were twists, and most were wicked thin. To be fair, a lot of Morgans have big tongues and low palates -- ask me how I know -- so some of those big thick "gentle" snaffles drive them nuts because there's no room in the mouth for them.)

    Sometimes I think the flash, crank, figure-8 etc. get used in dressage because the allowed bits are quite mild. And please remember, cranks don't have to be cranked, flashes don't have to be tight, etc. But I do think it's ridiculous how many people seem to assume that if it's a dressage horse, it needs a flash. (My mare needs a flash with a loose ring, just because the rotation of the loose ring bothers her. As she comes back into work, I'll be trying some other variations to see if she's happier without the "noise" of the loose ring.)
    Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port. Ask the Mylers and professionals who have studied bits. If it is under 2'' it does not affect the palate whatsoever (though of course this may vary with some horses, I am simply describing the typical situation - every horse's mouth conformation need be evaluated individually). Many horses greatly appreciate that tongue relief. Please do not confuse port with increased severity, because that just is not the case.

    Honestly I pick on bad riding and poor techniques (etc) no matter the discipline, not simply dressage. I think that likely goes for most individuals in discussion here.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by naturalequus View Post
      So, what about the horses who can still listen while they chew and swallow? Why can some horses listen through the chewing and swallowing, and some "can't"?

      I can understand the intention for refinement and subtler communication however does the drop noseband (and what about cranks and such??) really create a substantial difference in the stability of the bit (research?) and is that level of subtlety really required when it is not required elsewhere in other scenarios?

      I am questioning honestly here
      The flash is not meant to prevent chewing and swallowing.

      It is meant to provide a limitation on excessive motion of the horse's jaw and the bit, and thus encourage expectance of the bit.

      If you've ever seen a horse go with it's mouth agape, tongue sticking out, or honestly evading the bit in any manor (not a comfort or physical issue), a flash can help that horse by creating an exceptable range of motion for the the jaw, tongue, and bit.

      Think of it this way....

      A horse that does not need a flash tends to move it's jaw, tongue and bit within the exact same parameters as the flash allows for.

      That is why some horses go better in a flash....

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by naturalequus View Post
        Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port.
        But what about when you transition to the double bridle. Then you can't have a ported bradoon with a ported curb. How does the horse lift the tongue then? To be honest, I had not thought about it being more difficult for the horse to swallow while in a collected frame.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by naturalequus View Post
          Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port. Ask the Mylers and professionals who have studied bits. If it is under 2'' it does not affect the palate whatsoever (though of course this may vary with some horses, I am simply describing the typical situation - every horse's mouth conformation need be evaluated individually). Many horses greatly appreciate that tongue relief. Please do not confuse port with increased severity, because that just is not the case.

          Honestly I pick on bad riding and poor techniques (etc) no matter the discipline, not simply dressage. I think that likely goes for most individuals in discussion here.
          I, for one, think that jointed snaffle bits are not the least severe most horse friendly bits. In fact, one of my horsey friends' dad calls them tongue pinchers. One of my horses cannot stand anything jointed, including a snaffle. She gets spooky, flighty, behind the bit, or running thru aids. And, no it's not my hands. The movement worries her and makes her anxious.. So right now we use a mullen mouth curb with a looser chin strap. She maintains a nice friendly steady contact and soft chewing. Her ears flop as she goes. And I like the curb too. I don't have to do any work. I have my pinkies brushing the pommel, and can do all directions with my seat and pelvis. and legs. I feel the bit I'm using just communicates with parts of her mouth that she trusts. I guess if you listen to a horse, they can tell you what bit they like, LOL

          Comment


          • #45
            Why not a mullen mouth snaffle? (That would be legal if you were showing, and no, I don't think more of people who show...) And the double-jointed snaffles pinch less than single-jointed.

            My mare would *love* a bit with some leverage, based on a few experiences riding her in a short-shanked hackamore and a short-shanked pelham. Many horses would, but for showing, anyway, I play by the rules.
            You have to have experiences to gain experience.

            1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #46
              I did have a double jointed snaffle on her, and it was better, but I just got so addicted to her being relaxed, happy, and responsive with this mullen mouth curb. If it was a matter of her not listening or being too strong, I would surely go back to a solid or double jointed snaffle, I do believe in the training scale, etc. But it's a matter of her mental comfort. She's an ultra sensitive horse and highly responsive. I wish I could get her more collected in a canter, but it's slow going because I don't want to rely on a curb bit for that- I don't want her to do it front to back. So I just keep plugging away at creating impulsion into a soft frame............

              Comment


              • #47
                Oh nevermind...

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Percheron X View Post
                  The flash is not meant to prevent chewing and swallowing.

                  It is meant to provide a limitation on excessive motion of the horse's jaw and the bit, and thus encourage expectance of the bit.

                  If you've ever seen a horse go with it's mouth agape, tongue sticking out, or honestly evading the bit in any manor (not a comfort or physical issue), a flash can help that horse by creating an exceptable range of motion for the the jaw, tongue, and bit.

                  Think of it this way....

                  A horse that does not need a flash tends to move it's jaw, tongue and bit within the exact same parameters as the flash allows for.

                  That is why some horses go better in a flash....
                  Okay yes I do understand that, sorry - brain gap out on my part and I did not word it how I had intended I definitely realise no noseband should be restricting chewing and licking and that you had not meant otherwise. I just meant that why is stabilization of the bit so important for some horses and not for others when you consider that they all should be licking and chewing?? I do not think that differences in sensitivity can account for the need of stabilization versus none, either, though I concede that perhaps some horses prefer the stabilization for their own reasons (but not as many as are regularly wearing flashes, drops, and figure-8's).

                  But I still do not understand how that cannot be accomplished without a flash. And if that be the case, then why use the flash? Is it not better to rely less on such aids? A prime example: a figure-8 was used on my boy on the track for the very same reasons you listed - he raced in a tongue-tie. It is not something I used at home however via making a few changes (developing him into a calmer individual, introducing him to relaxation, changing the bit, maintaining soft hands, working our way up the training scale, etc etc), he progressively stopped running around with his mouth agape as he evaded the bit. I suppose I could see how the flash or figure-8 or drop could be used to teach a horse what I taught my boy sans specialized noseband, however I suppose personally I just feel it better off to address the root issue (lack of relaxation) than to slap a noseband on it. The same result might ultimately occur however I like the sans noseband approach better.

                  And what about cranks??
                  ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                  ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                    But what about when you transition to the double bridle. Then you can't have a ported bradoon with a ported curb. How does the horse lift the tongue then? To be honest, I had not thought about it being more difficult for the horse to swallow while in a collected frame.
                    At that point you could use something different that accomodates the double (I am not at all familiar with doubles to be honest). I am just saying I feel a port should be permitted for the rest of us not in doubles.
                    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      For what its worth, I was taught that the flash attachment was developed by jumpers to give the effect of a dropped noseband but still allowing for the use of a standing martingale. I also thought the use of figure-8s was to reduce pressure on the nostrils and to allow for more expansion, thus the reason they are used so frequently by eventers and some race trainers.
                      Amber King
                      Furever Dachshund Rescue
                      Fundraising Chair
                      http://www.fureverdachshundrescue.org/

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by princessfluffybritches View Post
                        I, for one, think that jointed snaffle bits are not the least severe most horse friendly bits. In fact, one of my horsey friends' dad calls them tongue pinchers. One of my horses cannot stand anything jointed, including a snaffle. She gets spooky, flighty, behind the bit, or running thru aids. And, no it's not my hands. The movement worries her and makes her anxious.. So right now we use a mullen mouth curb with a looser chin strap. She maintains a nice friendly steady contact and soft chewing. Her ears flop as she goes. And I like the curb too. I don't have to do any work. I have my pinkies brushing the pommel, and can do all directions with my seat and pelvis. and legs. I feel the bit I'm using just communicates with parts of her mouth that she trusts. I guess if you listen to a horse, they can tell you what bit they like, LOL
                        A single-jointed bit is going to apply both palate pressure and allow nutcracker action, so I agree with you completely. I typically either use double-jointeds or low-ported mouthpieces and love them.
                        ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                        ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Oct. 1, 2010, 12:03 AM
                          dressurpferd01


                          Oh nevermind...
                          thanks, you give me trhe strength to do the same thing
                          Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Originally posted by Bogey2 View Post
                            thanks, you give me trhe strength to do the same thing
                            Oh, don't do that. I look forward to reading all your informative posts

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by naturalequus View Post
                              Okay yes I do understand that, sorry - brain gap out on my part and I did not word it how I had intended I definitely realise no noseband should be restricting chewing and licking and that you had not meant otherwise. I just meant that why is stabilization of the bit so important for some horses and not for others when you consider that they all should be licking and chewing?? I do not think that differences in sensitivity can account for the need of stabilization versus none, either, though I concede that perhaps some horses prefer the stabilization for their own reasons (but not as many as are regularly wearing flashes, drops, and figure-8's).

                              But I still do not understand how that cannot be accomplished without a flash. And if that be the case, then why use the flash? Is it not better to rely less on such aids? A prime example: a figure-8 was used on my boy on the track for the very same reasons you listed - he raced in a tongue-tie. It is not something I used at home however via making a few changes (developing him into a calmer individual, introducing him to relaxation, changing the bit, maintaining soft hands, working our way up the training scale, etc etc), he progressively stopped running around with his mouth agape as he evaded the bit. I suppose I could see how the flash or figure-8 or drop could be used to teach a horse what I taught my boy sans specialized noseband, however I suppose personally I just feel it better off to address the root issue (lack of relaxation) than to slap a noseband on it. The same result might ultimately occur however I like the sans noseband approach better.

                              And what about cranks??
                              Your question is one that encompasses fundamental ideologies of ethics.

                              To understand any concepts involving "correctness", you must first have a reference point to weigh other options against.

                              When does a thing or an action become right or wrong? Was it right for ice age humans to remove horses from their natural way of life and begin to use them to perform work?

                              When a farmer uses herbicides and insecticides on a field to increase crop yield so as to feed the population, is it wrong that weeds and the insects may be harmed so that others may thrive?

                              Could it be that the beholder is biased to consider all that benefits him or her as good, and all that does not as bad?

                              In a world created of a finite quantity of mater, how can every single person and every single living thing have all that they may ever think they may ever need?

                              Between absolute indulgence and absolute altruism there exists a broad continuum of posable states of existence.

                              Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not.....

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                "Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not....."

                                I would be willing to prove to you that no horse needs flash nose bands, etc....it is the rider that causes the such.
                                I have actually ridden several horses throughout the past years that their owners said the horses needed such equipment. I was able to school and ride the horses in such a manner they without it and the owner/riders learned something from an uneducated and uncredentialed plain old horseman.
                                www.hartetoharte.org
                                Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  with or without the chains? Over the back or hollow?
                                  Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Same here, spirithorse, and I would be willing to bet the same. I honestly think it is more human than horse-necessary. That is not to say that a figure-8 (etc) cannot be used as a humane and effective training tool (though I find oftentimes it is not used as such), I just do not think a specific horse has to have it, that the same cannot be accomplished otherwise (ie. via the training scale). As I have stated, actually at least two of my own horses are prime examples (both OTTB's - I had forgotten a second one galloped in a figure-8, likely even a third...they don't with me). And they work over the back, btw. Not sure what is meant by chains, Bogey (maybe I am just having a brain fart?).
                                    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I am definitely not into the tight nosebands, cranking, etc. I have never felt a horse going better when his mouth was strapped shut tightly. I want the horse to be comfortable, be able to chew the bit, and open his mouth wide enough to accept the occasional well-earned treat while bitted.

                                      One time when riding a trainer's horse when she was away, I couldn't believe how tight her flash was. (It was clear what hole she used from the buckle mark.) I really had to use some MUSCLE to crank up the flash that tight (and I was in very good shape back then!) I did manage to buckle it at her normal hole, but couldn't in good conscience ride like that and lowered it two holes.

                                      On the other hand, I do sometimes use a flash. Not super tight, though. I find that certain horses seem to respond to it well. I think sometimes it creates an additional level of stability that some horses seem to like when working. Other horses clearly don't like it at all, so it gets removed.

                                      I let the horse decide. Just like finding a bit they work happily in. A bit that one horse loves, another will hate. They are individuals and have personal preferences. My last horse was small, I had no bits that fit him, and I consequently spent hundreds on various expensive Sprenger bits trying to find something he liked, only to find in the end he clearly preferred a $25 Happy Mouth.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                                        "Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not....."

                                        I would be willing to prove to you that no horse needs flash nose bands, etc....it is the rider that causes the such.
                                        I have actually ridden several horses throughout the past years that their owners said the horses needed such equipment. I was able to school and ride the horses in such a manner they without it and the owner/riders learned something from an uneducated and uncredentialed plain old horseman.
                                        Perhaps no horse does "need" to go in a flash nose band.

                                        Perhaps the rider may "need" the horse to go in a flash nose band.

                                        "Needs" are dependent upon a set of beliefs that arise out of a set of experiences that may tend to reinforce the belief of what is needed.

                                        The act of believing tends to create the need.

                                        To examine what "is" rather than what is needed, will lead to a set of facts that may also become beliefs.

                                        It is believed that Some horses go in flash nosebands, and some do not...

                                        I have seen horses go in flash nosebands, so therefore I believe it is a fact that some horses do...

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by naturalequus View Post
                                          Same here, spirithorse, and I would be willing to bet the same. I honestly think it is more human than horse-necessary. That is not to say that a figure-8 (etc) cannot be used as a humane and effective training tool (though I find oftentimes it is not used as such), I just do not think a specific horse has to have it, that the same cannot be accomplished otherwise (ie. via the training scale). As I have stated, actually at least two of my own horses are prime examples (both OTTB's - I had forgotten a second one galloped in a figure-8, likely even a third...they don't with me). And they work over the back, btw. Not sure what is meant by chains, Bogey (maybe I am just having a brain fart?).
                                          If you have never believed that a horse may go better in a flash noseband, it is doubtful that it will ever be your experience that they do....

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X