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CdJ and Gio GP @ Keysoe CDI3*

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    #21
    It is fine to say that things will improve with time. But NOW things are as they are.

    Here, the Gaits go a bit wonky at times, and I have no compunctions about looking at the issues. There is no need for any posters to see the discussion of issues as an attack on the riders/trainers. As I said, it is more an issue of
    1) breeding goals
    2) what judges reward.

    The market is calling for horses that move a certain way BEFORE they have ever started training. (And much as TB breeding is aimed at making $ at YEARLING SALES), one consequence is that the final product is somewhat compromised from the ideal we are supposed to (theoretically) be aiming for.

    If the gaits seem to be “not quite “ right at times, then yes We should look at that.
    "Friend" me !

    http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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      Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
      It is fine to say that things will improve with time. But NOW things are as they are.

      Here, the Gaits go a bit wonky at times, and I have no compunctions about looking at the issues. There is no need for any posters to see the discussion of issues as an attack on the riders/trainers. As I said, it is more an issue of
      1) breeding goals
      2) what judges reward.

      The market is calling for horses that move a certain way BEFORE they have ever started training. (And much as TB breeding is aimed at making $ at YEARLING SALES), one consequence is that the final product is somewhat compromised from the ideal we are supposed to (theoretically) be aiming for.

      If the gaits seem to be “not quite “ right at times, then yes We should look at that.
      Nobody said anything at all about "attacks". It is pretty obvious that not every step was "perfect" but it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE stretch to say that there are neurologic or lameness issues. What IS obvious is that this is a younger horse who has not gained all his strength and muscle just yet. Why the silly drama?
      ... _. ._ .._. .._

      Comment


        #23
        Originally posted by Equibrit View Post

        Nobody said anything at all about "attacks". It is pretty obvious that not every step was "perfect" but it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE stretch to say that there are neurologic or lameness issues. What IS obvious is that this is a younger horse who has not gained all his strength and muscle just yet. Why the silly drama?
        I gather you have never watched a weekend football commentary show. That’s what happens when sports are public. Everyone and their uncle will come out and say how the referee is a blind idiot, , the quarterback is a lazy jerk, the owner doesn’t do it right, and neither does anyone else directly involved.

        Public criticism comes ones along with public support. So, yes, not everyone sees the same thing. Labeling it ‘drama’ is a bit redundant.
        "Friend" me !

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          #24
          Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
          It is fine to say that things will improve with time. But NOW things are as they are.

          Here, the Gaits go a bit wonky at times, and I have no compunctions about looking at the issues. There is no need for any posters to see the discussion of issues as an attack on the riders/trainers. As I said, it is more an issue of
          1) breeding goals
          2) what judges reward.

          The market is calling for horses that move a certain way BEFORE they have ever started training. (And much as TB breeding is aimed at making $ at YEARLING SALES), one consequence is that the final product is somewhat compromised from the ideal we are supposed to (theoretically) be aiming for.

          If the gaits seem to be “not quite “ right at times, then yes We should look at that.
          CDJ herself says she doesn't look for or want horses with lots of crazy movement because they don't stay sound and are not correct. How do you know what you see isn't produced/vs what the horse has naturally?

          Comment

            Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post

            Public criticism comes ones along with public support. So, yes, not everyone sees the same thing. Labeling it ‘drama’ is a bit redundant.
            Seeing it is not the problem. INTERPRETATION and FICTION is. There are absolutely no facts to support the hypothesis of neurolical or lameness problems. There are FACTS, of which we are ALL aware, to support the assumption that these are the signs of a developing young horse. It's a shame there's no drama in that. It is just patently obvious.
            With freedom of speech comes responsibility.
            Last edited by Equibrit; Oct. 16, 2020, 03:38 PM.
            ... _. ._ .._. .._

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              #26
              Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

              CDJ herself says she doesn't look for or want horses with lots of crazy movement because they don't stay sound and are not correct. How do you know what you see isn't produced/vs what the horse has naturally?
              I was just thinking this. Every time I've seen/read about Charlotte and Carl picking horses, they talk about getting quality walks and canters. The trot is something that can be improved with time. Heck, I remember seeing a video of a kid riding Valegro at home and his trot was pretty ordinary- very correct, but ordinary. It's hard to criticize them for picking horses with flamboyant movement, as they don't. And maybe that's why they score so highly.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                but to call him lame/neurologic/unsound from a very foreshortened video view is complete nonsense. This was a 9 year old, making his debut at this level, one would expect some tension, which also would change with time.
                A horse can be lame without presenting with a headbob.

                The definition of lameness;
                Lameness is an abnormal gait or stance of an animal that is the result of dysfunction of the locomotor system. In the horse, it is most commonly caused by pain, but can be due to neurologic or mechanical dysfunction
                Classically, a lack of separation of the hinds at the canter is a lameness. A four beat canter in a horse is classically a lameness. Gait abnormalities that include shortened or inconsistent strides are also a lameness.

                Any sort of gait / step abnormality is included in the above, including inconsistent strides. Are you saying this was not present in the video?

                Six seconds in you can see an abnormal gait in the LH, he keeps snapping the hock up and it has a completely shortened stride. 20s in and you can see he tries not to push off at the canter with that leg, accompanied by a lack of separation of the hinds in the canter. Down the centerline pushing off of that leg, four beat canter. Could be tension. Avoiding pushing off on it again, trails it at the halt. Abnormal abduction @ 50s, with swinging wide first several steps, hinds not in same track as fronts. Two completely different half-passes in terms of the horse's straighness and push from behind, as well as the way the hind legs behaved when being brought forward. Watch the LH pelvis going to the right, then watch it left HP. Do you think that the LH is behaving normally? Same in the reinback, two different stride lengths depending on leg.

                Watch into the P/P and again, two different lengths in stride. He wont pick up the LH to the same degree. 2:35 to the wall, the minor bobble at 2:41 when the LH is loaded..

                The transitions really bring it out. Pay close attention to the first couple of strides after every transition - it was pretty obvious in the beginning but also obvious at 2:45 too. Compare the walk @ 2:45 to 3:21 and they're different.

                In the canter half-passes it seemed obvious to me as well.

                That's not even touching into the RF.

                Is that not the definition of a lameness? Gait abnormalities?

                He clearly isn't 3 legged lame. But I think it's a big disservice to say that there's nothing remiss in way he is moving.

                I don't think I need to forward this with the caveat that I have never ridden at this level and never will. That doesn't mean I can't spot a lameness, or ask a question about this horse and his way of movement.

                It also does not mean I am attacking CdJ, the quality of this horse, or the quality of her program.

                AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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                  #28
                  Reminds me of Ashley Holzer’s Pop Art.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                    Is that not the definition of a lameness? Gait abnormalities?
                    No - not the full definition, usually it is followed by "in response to pain".

                    He is moving like a young horse, not confident, not familiar with the venue, does not have the muscle memory of a seasoned campaigner, does not yet have the muscle to maintain his balance, who has to listen really hard to his rider but is sometimes a little late in his responses. Just something moving in the arena may cause a short step, but you have done his rider the disservice of calling it neurologic ! Let the chinese whispers begin.
                    ... _. ._ .._. .._

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                      No - not the full definition, usually it is followed by "in response to pain".

                      He is moving like a young horse, not confident, not familiar with the venue, does not have the muscle memory of a seasoned campaigner, does not yet have the muscle to maintain his balance, who has to listen really hard to his rider but is sometimes a little late in his responses. Just something moving in the arena may cause a short step, but you have done his rider the disservice of calling it neurologic ! Let the chinese whispers begin.
                      Hyper-elasticity/mobility has a neurological component. Just because we breed for it or it is normalized, does not mean it is desirable.

                      I agree there are many things to make a horse take a short step. Tension, nervousness, etc. But the "short" step is on the same legs, the entire test.

                      It really is not a "reach" at all to observe there are gait abnormalities present in this video of this horse. Carry on.

                      Let's rephrase. Average owner tells us the following about her horse
                      - he's very tense in the ring
                      - he has a four beat canter
                      - he has a lack of separation in the hinds during canter
                      - he inconsistently takes a short step
                      - he's crooked and sometimes his hind leg is on a totally different track than his fronts
                      - he takes a funny step in/out of transitions
                      - he doesn't want to push off/engage a specific leg
                      - he has difficulty maintaining balance


                      What would COTH say? They would say this horse is lame. But, because it's CdJ... These are people too. There is way more to lameness than a clear headbob.
                      AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #31
                        You have an extensive imagination.
                        ... _. ._ .._. .._

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                          A horse can be lame without presenting with a headbob.

                          The definition of lameness;


                          Classically, a lack of separation of the hinds at the canter is a lameness. A four beat canter in a horse is classically a lameness. Gait abnormalities that include shortened or inconsistent strides are also a lameness.

                          Any sort of gait / step abnormality is included in the above, including inconsistent strides. Are you saying this was not present in the video?

                          Six seconds in you can see an abnormal gait in the LH, he keeps snapping the hock up and it has a completely shortened stride. 20s in and you can see he tries not to push off at the canter with that leg, accompanied by a lack of separation of the hinds in the canter. Down the centerline pushing off of that leg, four beat canter. Could be tension. Avoiding pushing off on it again, trails it at the halt. Abnormal abduction @ 50s, with swinging wide first several steps, hinds not in same track as fronts. Two completely different half-passes in terms of the horse's straighness and push from behind, as well as the way the hind legs behaved when being brought forward. Watch the LH pelvis going to the right, then watch it left HP. Do you think that the LH is behaving normally? Same in the reinback, two different stride lengths depending on leg.

                          Watch into the P/P and again, two different lengths in stride. He wont pick up the LH to the same degree. 2:35 to the wall, the minor bobble at 2:41 when the LH is loaded..

                          The transitions really bring it out. Pay close attention to the first couple of strides after every transition - it was pretty obvious in the beginning but also obvious at 2:45 too. Compare the walk @ 2:45 to 3:21 and they're different.

                          In the canter half-passes it seemed obvious to me as well.

                          That's not even touching into the RF.

                          Is that not the definition of a lameness? Gait abnormalities?

                          He clearly isn't 3 legged lame. But I think it's a big disservice to say that there's nothing remiss in way he is moving.

                          I don't think I need to forward this with the caveat that I have never ridden at this level and never will. That doesn't mean I can't spot a lameness, or ask a question about this horse and his way of movement.

                          It also does not mean I am attacking CdJ, the quality of this horse, or the quality of her program.
                          The walks at 2:45 and 3:21 are different walks written in the test - extended walk on the diagonal and collected walk through the short end. They are supposed to be very different walks. The collected walk at GP is very difficult as a lot of horses anticipate the piaffe, especially if they've schooled/shown the GP special that has the walk to piaffe transition, and you often see them struggling to keep a good rhythm because they are anticipating.

                          I think some of the things you are seeing are a horse very, very green to the test. Most horses have a "sitting" hind leg and a "pushing" hind leg and I think he is not strong enough yet to overcome his tendency to push with the LH and ground the RH, and the lack of symmetry in sitting behind shows through when he's tense and/or finding something difficult. I do see him weeble-wobbling in the piaffe and loosing a hind leg to the side in the passage and I have to say his canter isn't my favorite, especially the pirouettes. I think he could have more separation in the hind legs, but it's probably as fine line to walk to keep him collected enough for the movements with the amount of activity he has behind naturally.

                          He's offering movements and transitions that aren't in the test and CDJ is catching them so quick, they are just a disruption in rhythm or straightness. The one big disruption in rhythm that sneaks through is the canter to trot transition at the end at M - and having shown through I1 and schooled all the GP for several years, that canter to trot transition is the hardest transition you will ever do in a test.

                          It'll be interesting to see if he gains confidence as he gets stronger or if he finds this too physically and mentally difficult to show at a high level long term. I watched this video from 2019 and I see him even more green to the p/p but when she lets him have a bigger canter, he looks more even behind. Interestingly, he looks to have the same size step behind in the changes in both the videos, and I think a lameness would really show up there. I can't imagine Carl and Charlotte would ignore or not recognize a lameness - I could see maybe being overcome by the excitement/adrenaline of a big-time show, but if he's truly lame, I think we won't see him much more unless it's solved.

                          It's interesting comparing Gio and Freestyle - Gio is snappy and quick almost like a baroque breed and Freestyle floats and bounces and her tempo is much more like Valegro's, but she is not as active behind or as forward.

                          Comment


                            #33
                            I just realized that the link to the video with Gio that I referenced didn't come through on my post (until I edited it) so here it is again. It's worth a watch to compare to the imho poor quality Kesoe video. Gio is at 1:09 (though the rest of the video was really fun to watch.)
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd-ESDd3Uek I do personally think this video is more representative of what this horse can do and I think he's really impressive.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                              Hyper-elasticity/mobility has a neurological component. Just because we breed for it or it is normalized, does not mean it is desirable.

                              I agree there are many things to make a horse take a short step. Tension, nervousness, etc. But the "short" step is on the same legs, the entire test.

                              It really is not a "reach" at all to observe there are gait abnormalities present in this video of this horse. Carry on.

                              Let's rephrase. Average owner tells us the following about her horse
                              - he's very tense in the ring
                              - he has a four beat canter
                              - he has a lack of separation in the hinds during canter
                              - he inconsistently takes a short step
                              - he's crooked and sometimes his hind leg is on a totally different track than his fronts
                              - he takes a funny step in/out of transitions
                              - he doesn't want to push off/engage a specific leg
                              - he has difficulty maintaining balance


                              What would COTH say? They would say this horse is lame. But, because it's CdJ... These are people too. There is way more to lameness than a clear headbob.
                              Have you ever seen a sound horse in your life? I feel as though every horse is lame to you. Which is fine, your opinion and all that.

                              Can you further explain how the hypermobility of a joint has a neurological component? I think I know what you're getting at.

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post

                                Have you ever seen a sound horse in your life? I feel as though every horse is lame to you. Which is fine, your opinion and all that.

                                Can you further explain how the hypermobility of a joint has a neurological component? I think I know what you're getting at.
                                Perhaps you should look up Sue Dyson veterinarian. Her research into the gait and symmetrical issues of show horses is pretty enlightening stuff.
                                "Friend" me !

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                                  Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Freestyle; https://online.equipe.com/en/starts/8992638
                                  Gio; https://online.equipe.com/en/starts/8992639
                                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    OMG. Jeez. This is a very nice, well ridden and obedient GREEN grand prix and I think it was generously overscored. It doesn't yet have enough strength to produce the expression throughout the test that adds the WOW factor that gets scores into the high 70s and 80s, IMO. I found the p/p super and the rest boring. I also thought Edward G's debut on Toto Jr was also GREEN, but more expression and mistakes than GIO...similar scores so probably overscored too (but I think Toto Jr is a more compelling animal). Give it a year and we are going to see an epic battle between the two that is going to be so enjoyable to watch.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Master class in riding a developing horse. Interesting g directions in canter left.. CdJ always follows a correction with forward hand..horse gains confidence in having somewhere to go thru the corrections.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        3rd GP for th horse, 1st indoors
                                        "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          I’m struggling to understand how one could conclude the horse is neurological from watching this video

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