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Training Flying Changes

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    #41
    Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

    and I replied, my bad, it’s Fourth.



    ...

    again.

    The tests; ours, yours or theirs, follow a logical progression of what/how training should be according to the dressage training scale.What the horse needs and goals are actually written on the tests.

    Hence my comment about your « alternative point of view » who’s basically the normal progression proposed by the FEI and the national federations through the tests.

    I’ve had numerous discussions with FEI judges; those who actually are creating those tests...

    What people do with the tests, them being Europeans or Americans (sic), is none of my concern and totally unrelated.





    Not only have I seen the film Mazeppa, I’ve met with Bartabas himself, a year ago, in Aubervilliers and spent a training day with his team in Versailles. Laure Guillaume is charming. So there’s that...

    And I might not have done/trained canter backwards myself, but I’ve actually done some nice canter on the spot at my friend’s barn Frank Grelo while training with him for a few months. I have then been able to train/teach it to a little OTTB afterward.

    Nevertheless, we were talking about transitions and you wrote :

    which has nothing to do with cantering backward.

    And if people needed to wait until they mastered canter backward prior to teaching flying changes, no one would do them...





    I never said reinback to canter was a problem, it’s actually quite easy, easier than halt-canter transitions.

    I said I don’t wanted to see your canter to reinback transition; it’s impossible unless you halt in between - and so, it just cannot be preparatory to any kind of work.

    Do you play the gotcha game much????

    I am glad you have had the opportunity to see/ride with Bartabas. FYI...I also have seen Bartabas ride in person. It is actually the reason I sold my Hanoverian after seeing the artistic riding his troupe was doing. I decided I wanted to ride like that.

    I am glad you have had a chance to ride with Frank Grelo. If you have ridden Frank's horses, then you know what a very collected horse can feel like.

    As far as the canter-reinback-canter.....yes, you have to halt then reinback. How do you think you teach a horse to canter backwards? It is the sublime adjustment of a horse-rider's balance.

    Here is George Gabriel doing one of the best piaffes I have ever seen.....the balance between horse and rider is sublime such that the rider is adjusting the horse from forward to back.




    Originally, I was answering the OP's question about teaching (or not) flying changes. My opinion is that any rider can teach a flying change....IF....BIG IF......they have an interest in developing equestrian tact.

    My answer to OP was that a rider can do a whole lot of prep work that does NOT include actually doing a flying change.....but that prepares the rider to feel the horse and thus also prepares the rider to learn how to ride or ask for the change....and that this is done by developing balance. I used the canter backwards as an example of this sublime balance between horse and rider.

    So....I am very glad that you have had the opportunities your describe. You should then be very aware of the requirements to get to that level of training.

    Thus you should be aware of the training route that an interested rider can take to preparing schooling a change that are applicable to OP's question and thus you can provide suggestions/ideas that are more substantive than just to farm it out to a trainer.

    FYi....I tried to edit this and my post went into Purgatory....so I am posting again....sans typos.
    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
    Alfred A. Montapert

    Comment


      #42
      Neat video!

      I really appreciate Pluvinel's posts, with regards to feeling what is going on with the horse's feet. That feel really speaks to the ability to learn to ride, or train, a flying change. It is great to be reminded of other ways to find that feel separate from the flying change.

      I've had that feeling, when the horse will pause his leg/s in the air, take it forward or backward, exactly with your intention. Granted, not often. But it's an extraordinary feeling.

      I plan on eventually making a real bridle horse here on the ranch, and that must involve correct, classical dressage. If the dressage isn't correct, it's not straight up in the bridle in my estimation. It's nice to read about, and think about, the preparatory work for flying changes.

      To the OP...there's no right or wrong answer to whether you should try to train flying changes yourself. There's no shame in asking for help if you need it, or just want it done that way. I 'hired out' the first time my horse roped calves at a branding, opting not to try it myself, in spite of lots of good prep work. The second horse, I did all by myself. They both worked out fine.

      I do second the opinion that you should find the very best help possible if you hire a pro. Consider saving your pennies, putting it off for a while or even a good while, if it means that you can get someone who is Really Talented with teaching the horse. I'd go so far as finding someone who not only won't fry the horse's brain, but has a reputation for fixing horses that got fried over flying changes.

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by pluvinel View Post
        Do you play the gotcha game much????

        I am glad you have had the opportunity to see/ride with Bartabas. FYI...I also have seen Bartabas ride in person. It is actually the reason I sold my Hanoverian after seeing the artistic riding his troupe was doing. I decided I wanted to ride like that.
        That’s an odd reason to sell a horse...
        Couldn’t have you just train your horse?
        You know Bartabas uses different types of horses?
        As a matter of fact, Frank does as well.
        I’ve trained my hanoverian mare to do the spanish walk...

        I am glad you have had a chance to ride with Frank Grelo. If you have ridden Frank's horses, then you know what a very collected horse can feel like.
        I had ridden very collected horses before going to Frank’s farm...

        You seem to have a very funneled vision of what dressage training is all about.

        As far as the canter-reinback-canter.....yes, you have to halt then reinback. How do you think you teach a horse to canter backwards? It is the sublime adjustment of a horse-rider's balance.
        Then it’s not a Canter - Reinback transition...

        And that’s not how you train cantering backward or on the spot if that matter. Halt isn’t part of it - like for piaffe or passage, it’s taught from a moving/mobilised horse.

        Cantering backward is a 4 beat movement, same footfall as a regular very collected canter and you need to learn how to ride those 4 beats on the spot first.
        You then use your seat to shorten and influence the canter backward, little by little.
        Like for the airs above the ground, only a few horses, very strong ones, will be able to do so as it is very hard on the hind end.
        And again, not a requirement for flying changes at all.

        Originally, I was answering the OP's question about teaching (or not) flying changes. My opinion is that any rider can teach a flying change....IF....BIG IF......they have an interest in developing equestrian tact.
        BIG

        Riding in itself develops one’s equestrian tact...
        And as much as you can want to develop your riding skills, doesn’t mean you’re ready to teach changes...

        My answer to OP was that a rider can do a whole lot of prep work that does NOT include actually doing a flying change.....but that prepares the rider to feel the horse and thus also prepares the rider to learn how to ride or ask for the change....and that this is done by developing balance. I used the canter backwards as an example of this sublime balance between horse and rider.
        And my answer was that if one follows the tests and dressage training scale, it logicaly prepares the horse - so your point of view is no different than what the FEI or the National federation are technically saying/doing/asking.

        Canter backward is not a good example as mostly no one will ever do so and it is, again, not needed to prepare a horse for the changes.

        So....I am very glad that you have had the opportunities your describe. You should then be very aware of the requirements to get to that level of training.

        Thus you should be aware of the training route that an interested rider can take to preparing schooling a change that are applicable to OP's question and thus you can provide suggestions/ideas that are more substantive than just to farm it out to a trainer.
        Indeed, I’m well aware of the steps needed to achieve and train flying changes. It’s not a very high level of training, really.

        Yet, I will still suggest to the OP to learn them from a school master first, and I won’t be condescending because I believe the OP should seek out the help of an accomplished trainer to train the changes to her/hos horse.

        The OP could still learn a great deal while the horse is in training with someone else... The OP could still ride the horse, could still be there watching and discussing and be part of the process while learning valuable skills.

        The OP is at the beginning of the 3rd level journey - more likely still at 2d if the flying change mechanic seems so foreign yet.

        Why confuse the rider? Why confuse the horse?
        Getting help from a good trainer and a good schoolmaster isn’t a shame...

        You like to talk about the SRS... well, they do a year on the lunge on top of schoolmasters - they don’t get to train their horses right away just like that. They first learn from schoolmasters, then they are taught how to train, and only then can they train on their own.
        It’s just a logical and fair path.
        ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

        Originally posted by LauraKY
        I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

          .....

          You like to talk about the SRS... well, they do a year on the lunge on top of schoolmasters - they don’t get to train their horses right away just like that. They first learn from schoolmasters, then they are taught how to train, and only then can they train on their own.
          It’s just a logical and fair path.
          Please let me know where I "like to talk about the SRS?"

          I'm actually more a fan of the iberian and french schools.

          But whatev.....I have my opinion.....you have yours. Let the OP decide on her path.
          Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
          Alfred A. Montapert

          Comment


            #45
            I really enjoy that the OP can't ask a freaking basic question without it turning into a pissing match about classical dressage and how you aren't a real rider unless you train it yourself.

            Do carry on. It makes people feel wonderful about their participation in this sport.
            Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
            you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post
              I really enjoy that the OP can't ask a freaking basic question without it turning into a pissing match about classical dressage and how you aren't a real rider unless you train it yourself.

              Do carry on. It makes people feel wonderful about their participation in this sport.
              What is with the attitude? Is there something in the air? Is it the coming full moon on Wed?

              My response to OP was basically a suggestion to "go for for it"....and to try to develop her knowledge about preparing a horse to learn changes.

              My opinion is based on my observation that a lot of AA's I know don't have confidence in themselves, become dependent on a trainer and are fearful of even trying anything on their own. How can one learn if one does not try?

              My best instructor was the one who gave me permission to fail.
              Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
              Alfred A. Montapert

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

                What is with the attitude? Is there something in the air? Is it the coming full moon on Wed?

                My response to OP was basically a suggestion to "go for for it"....and to try to develop her knowledge about preparing a horse to learn changes.

                My opinion is based on my observation that a lot of AA's I know don't have confidence in themselves, become dependent on a trainer and are fearful of even trying anything on their own. How can one learn if one does not try?

                My best instructor was the one who gave me permission to fail.
                It might possibly be that I'm not just talking about you...though you're the one keeping the argument going.,
                Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post

                  It might possibly be that I'm not just talking about you...though you're the one keeping the argument going.,
                  Ok....welcome to the club.....You're here, so we're BOTH guilty as charged.
                  Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                  Alfred A. Montapert

                  Comment


                    #49
                    OP, do you have access to a schoolmaster/a horse with confirmed changes that you can take some lessons on? It might be worth taking some lessons on horses with changes--maybe even a few different ones since every horse can be different. That way you can work on your own aids/timing and also get a sense for how challenging the changes are for you as a rider, separate from your horse. After that you and trainer might be able to make a better decision about whether to send the horse to training or whether you and trainer can work on it through lessons.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      OP
                      Good job on bringing your cob along .
                      You have admitted that you are unsure about schooling flying changes so I think you should consider having a pro teach him, and at the same time , if the budget allows , taking a few lessons with a trainer that has a school master that you can learn what correct flying changes feel like.

                      I understand why you want to teach him yourself but you will be way ahead if you allow a pro to train him , and you as well. It wouldn't be of any benefit if your cob could learn the FC but you had difficulty maintaining the training.
                      Good luck.
                      Certified Guacophobe

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen View Post
                        OP
                        Good job on bringing your cob along .
                        You have admitted that you are unsure about schooling flying changes so I think you should consider having a pro teach him, and at the same time , if the budget allows , taking a few lessons with a trainer that has a school master that you can learn what correct flying changes feel like.

                        I understand why you want to teach him yourself but you will be way ahead if you allow a pro to train him , and you as well. It wouldn't be of any benefit if your cob could learn the FC but you had difficulty maintaining the training.
                        Good luck.
                        I think this is a very reasonable approach and level-headed suggestion. I do want to point out that while it's best to avoid mistakes, better to give the horse the best training and opportunity, there is also a very real possibility that someone taking lessons on a horse (or two) trained to do proper FCs and getting help on the ground regularly can succeed in putting the FCs on a horse. I am the first person to support NOT teaching a welsh cob 'the wrong' thing; but, they can survive first timers and go on to have a successful career (as can the rider). Having someone skilled put FCs on your horse does not equate to one being a lesser rider, actually it probably speaks to being a person with a very objective sense of realistic goals. However there are a few of us who do find it more gratifying in the long run learn to learn how to teach the changes to one's horse and there is nothing wrong with that either (not directed at any one specific). I think the OP made it clear that she is not in 'my camp, ie. DIY' and that's okay. I'm looking forward to seeing another successful Welsh Cob at the upper levels of dressage. OP please keep us posted!
                        Ranch of Last Resort

                        Comment


                          #52
                          "Do carry on. It makes people feel wonderful about their participation in this sport." Well, there's your issue right there. Most classical folk do not regard dressage as a sport. It's an art and never the twain shall meet. (I don't agree with that.)

                          Comment


                            #53
                            OP, I'm glad you have decided to get help with the changes. You look like a good rider in your pictures. It's been my experience that a rider must have excellent timing and feel to teach correct changes. I've seen people struggle with changes that are late behind, or wrong in front because they didn't have the needed skills to be successful. The rider must know how to handle any exuberance on the horse's part; whether they go extremely croup high, head high, or take off after the change. A good instructor can not only teach the horse, but can also show you the correct exercises to use in preparation for ultimately asking for a change. Enjoy the process and have fun!

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

                              Do you play the gotcha game much????

                              I am glad you have had the opportunity to see/ride with Bartabas. FYI...I also have seen Bartabas ride in person. It is actually the reason I sold my Hanoverian after seeing the artistic riding his troupe was doing. I decided I wanted to ride like that.
                              Wait, what?

                              You sold your horse because you wanted to ride it differently?

                              Why not just ride the horse you have differently?
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                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                                Wait, what?

                                You sold your horse because you wanted to ride it differently?

                                Why not just ride the horse you have differently?
                                Sigh......are we judgemental much???

                                I sold the horse because the work I wanted to do was work that this horse found physically difficult. Rather than ask the horse to do work he resented and did not like, I found him a home where a kid loved galloping cross country.

                                In football, the offensive linemen are usually men over 6 feet tall and weigh north of 300 lbs.....although they are athletes in their own right, you don't find these guys competing in Olympic level gymnastics. The male gymnasts are usually men smaller than 5'5" and weigh less than 150 pounds.

                                Taking your logic, we could ask...Hey, these are both "men".....why not take the 5-5 gymnast and try to get him to block a 300 lb lineman????

                                Same with horses. As the Brits are known to say....."Horses for Courses".......Different people are suited for different jobs or situations.

                                So, depending on the what work the rider wants to do, you want to select a horse that is physically (and mentally) configured for the animal to be successful in the job we humans are asking for it to do.

                                Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                                Alfred A. Montapert

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  OP, I may be chiming in a bit late here, but I would be inclined to:

                                  1. Do as much preparation as horse and I can do;
                                  2. Ride (multiple if possible) schoolmasters to learn what it should feel like and what balance and aids to use to set up, execute, and follow through;
                                  2. Have good trainer install FC (after confirming necessary prep is done).

                                  I think the Ritters are currently doing a Flying Changes course, if you want to increase your theoretical knowledge and preparation. I love that they provide gymnastic exercises and options for troubleshooting specific issues. Their courses are helping my work at home be more fun, rewarding, and correct. I have two very different horses so I use the exercises a little differently for each one. I tend to ride by feel and get overwhelmed by how much I know I don't know, so having a tested structure provided is also very helpful for me--but I think you could also take just bits and pieces if that works better for you. (NB--I have a wonderful trainer whom I love, but it's hard for me to work with her as much as I'd like, and my career and kids take priority for a few more years, so mostly working on my own it is.)
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