Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Spiral Seat

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Spiral Seat

    Looking for descriptions/explanations of the spiral seat and an internet search didn't turn up much.
    I'd specifically like a good explanation of the spiral seat in canter. Has anyone got a suggestion?
    www.TheSaddleTree.com
    www.TrainingTree.net

    #2
    Do you mean how you use your seat when spiraling in/out at the canter?

    Comment


      #3
      I thought you must be talking about a new kind of saddle or something.
      It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

      Comment


        #4
        I wonder whether this is what Charles de Kunffy teaches for the canter. It's a somewhat exaggerated turning of the body. I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, but it's kind of like a pedaling a bicycle backwards with your seat bones.
        "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          Maybe this is more familiar: remember that your hips are supposed to mirror the horse's hips and your shoulders are supposed to mirror the horse's shoulders, right? So in a turn at walk or trot your outside hip is further back than your inside hip and your inside shoulder is further back than your outside shoulder. In other words, your hips turn to the outside and your shoulders turn to the inside. Often referred to as a Spiral Seat.
          www.TheSaddleTree.com
          www.TrainingTree.net

          Comment


            #6
            The best description I have heard is to think about your body like a spiral staircase, so you have an upright center and the outer side of your body is spiraling in the direction of travel, with the lower leg back a bit, but the outside shoulder more forward, which makes room in the outside rein. I don't like to think of outside hip (seatbone really, they can't be separated) coming back. That would cause you to be twisted in the saddle and potentially influence your horse to fall out off the line of travel. Your seat needs to be aligned in the saddle perpendicular to the horse's spine since the horse and saddle are pretty inseparable (one hopes).

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #7
              Here is one of the few things I was able to find: https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/Circles.pdf
              It's just the last full paragraph that describes the spiral seat, for those of you unfamiliar. It doesn't mention how the seat changes in canter, though...
              www.TheSaddleTree.com
              www.TrainingTree.net

              Comment


                #8
                Should work the same no matter what the gait. The purpose is to create and control bend.

                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by 2tempe View Post
                  Should work the same no matter what the gait. The purpose is to create and control bend.
                  Except it isn't exactly the same because the horse's inside shoulder is further forward when turning in canter, whereas at walk and trot it is the outside shoulder that is further forward. On a straight line at canter the rider's outside shoulder should be back, and in a turn or circle the riders' shoulders turn into the turn but not to the degree that they would at walk or trot. It's a detail that gets glossed over regularly but it makes a difference! Particularly in maintaining counter canter on a horse with established flying changes but more subtly in the quality of movement in any canter.
                  Perhaps I need to write the article I wish I could find!
                  www.TheSaddleTree.com
                  www.TrainingTree.net

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                    I wonder whether this is what Charles de Kunffy teaches for the canter. It's a somewhat exaggerated turning of the body. I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, but it's kind of like a pedaling a bicycle backwards with your seat bones.
                    Good description. I didn't know it had a name.
                    Rack on!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I ran into the concept from "Anatomy of Dressage" by Volker Schusdziarra and Heinrich Schusdziarra.

                      I got this book decades ago when it was titled "Anatomy of Riding", same authors of course.

                      This is an excellent book. What they describe is the rider's shoulders going with the horse's shoulders while the rider's hips go parallel with the horse's hips. My riding teacher was happy to find that there was actually a term she could use to describe the action.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by no.stirrups View Post

                        Except it isn't exactly the same because the horse's inside shoulder is further forward when turning in canter, whereas at walk and trot it is the outside shoulder that is further forward. On a straight line at canter the rider's outside shoulder should be back, and in a turn or circle the riders' shoulders turn into the turn but not to the degree that they would at walk or trot. It's a detail that gets glossed over regularly but it makes a difference! Particularly in maintaining counter canter on a horse with established flying changes but more subtly in the quality of movement in any canter.
                        Perhaps I need to write the article I wish I could find!
                        I wont disagree that there are differences in degree depending on the gait. But at the extreme - canter pirouette - I have to turn my shoulders (upper body) quite a bit to bring the horse around. Will think about this later when I ride.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I've been studying dressage for a long time and I've never heard that term. So I'm not sure I agree with, "Often referred to as a Spiral Seat." Not often, I dare say. Besides that though, it's been my experience that most riders are not able to dissect their position in relation to the position of the horse to that degree. It just messes them up. Are you asking in the context of saddle fitting (as it seems that is what you do)?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I agree with Mondo. I have been fortunate enough to ride with and listen to some of the top clinicians and instructors. I have never yet heard that term.

                            I do agree with the dynamics mentioned.
                            Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                            Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #15
                              Mondo, I'm asking as a riding instructor, as that is also what I do.

                              jackie Cochran, does Anatomy of Dressage/Anatomy of Riding specify how the shoulder position changes in canter as related to other gaits?

                              A student has asked for more resources as she mulls the concept and I'm trying to find something helpful.

                              Is there another term or phrase that I should be searching?
                              www.TheSaddleTree.com
                              www.TrainingTree.net

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Jackie Cochran is correct. I own the book she mentions -- it's a good one! My coach teaches that the inside shoulder of the rider must come back, which in turn weights the inside seatbone and leg slightly more as you ask the horse to turn, ride a shoulder-in, a half-pass and so forth. Another way I describe it to my own students is to point your sternum towards the direction you want the horse to go. Other instructors have said "advance your outside shoulder as you turn". it all adds up to the same idea -- just whatever seems to help the rider understand what's expected. It's the same in canter as it is in trot or walk. You still want the horse to bend around the inside leg, so the rider's posture is the same.

                                it's important to remember that you don't drop your shoulder towards the turn (a common mistake). Sally Swift recommended the rider think of those shoulder yokes that milk maids carried buckets of milk with -- one bucket on either side. Don't drop your milk buckets! Your hands go along with the "spiraling" shoulders -- hanging relaxed from the shoulder joints, and not one hand pulling back while the other hand throws the rein foreward. The hands stay together over the front of the saddle/withers.

                                This is an interesting discussion to me because for the last few months, for the life of me, I could not"feel" my right seatbone, no matter how well I thought I was using my shoulder to initiate the turn, expecting my weight to go to/through my right seatbone and down my leg. Wasn't happening. I visited my doctor (Chiropractor in this case). X-rays showed my sacrum had a 12-degree tilt down to the left! I also had an old whiplash injury to my neck that the Dr. wanted to fix. I've been going through treatments, adjustments, heel lifts for my "short" left leg & traction for my neck, etc., and lo and behold! I found my right seatbone again!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Never heard of the term « spiral seat » either, and that’s probably the reason why you haven’t found much about it on the internet.

                                  As an instructor, you should be able to explain your theories to your students.
                                  Where did you get that term?

                                  Have your student find a book by Müseler, he’s the first to talk about moving the inside seat bone forward for the canter departure and bringing the outside shoulder forward while turning.

                                  If a rider wants to keep his balance in a turn, he has to keep it in line/above the horse’s own balance.

                                  « Centered riding » by Sally Swift is also a good book to understand the biomechanic of riding.



                                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

                                  Comment

                                    Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    So I should have said "sometimes" rather than "often". Oy. Yet I've never heard it called anything else. I have frequently heard the explanation without any label at all but that doesn't lend itself to searches, does it? I think I initially heard the term on the old Classical Dressage Yahoo group run by the Ritters but it has come up in other places, such as the link I posted above (post #7).

                                    alibi_18 Obviously I can explain, as I did very briefly above. I have a student who likes to get very deep into theory (and she has said quite a few times that she is lucky to have found in me an instructor who can do that with her) and she likes to read. I'm trying to help her out.

                                    Many thanks to those with suggestions.
                                    www.TheSaddleTree.com
                                    www.TrainingTree.net

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      If it makes you feel better, I have heard about the spiral seat years ago, but I don’t use it because I find the term to be biomechanically confusing. It’s not a spiral system, it is a rotating axial system. If you teach it as the latter, it will be much clearer, IMO.
                                      Banter whenever you want to banter....canter whenever you want to canter.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Seen on Dingoes Breakfast rider biomechanics,and from Mary Wanless here are some links to pics, not sure if the websites work ?
                                        https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/331436853824553264/
                                        http://www.dingosbreakfastclub.net/D...iralseat1.html
                                        https://www.pinterest.ru/pin/720787115331754499/

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X