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How Often Do You Get Different Feedback from the Judge Than You Get from Your Instructor?

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    How Often Do You Get Different Feedback from the Judge Than You Get from Your Instructor?

    Granted, the judge is only seeing a snapshot of me and my horse in one moment, and the instructor see's the big picture. Still, its somewhat disconcerting. It always ends up in a "who do I believe" sort of quandry…... Would be interested in others' experiences. Thanks!

    #2
    I would highly suggest someone videotaping your rides and watch them with the test in hand. There have been many times that I thought "Oh, that medium was excellent" and then watched the video and concluded "oh yea, that didn't show much a difference although it felt like a difference". You can believe your own eyes!
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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      #3
      (Almost) every instructor I have had has said to slow the horse down. Every judge I have had has said my horse is not forward enough. The judges were right.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by ytr45 View Post
        Granted, the judge is only seeing a snapshot of me and my horse in one moment, and the instructor see's the big picture. Still, its somewhat disconcerting. It always ends up in a "who do I believe" sort of quandry…... Would be interested in others' experiences. Thanks!
        J-Lu I will concur with regarding videotaping and ask, is your trainer watching your show rides?

        If no, you might want to videotape your rides and analyse them with your trainer and see if the commentaries differ.

        If yes, and (or) the commentaries (still) differ, you need to rethink your riding or the judging.

        If the shows are judged by known judges, and your goal is competing, maybe a new trainer is in order.

        My experience is that my show rides are similarly critiqued by my trainers, the judges and, I like to believe, myself.







        ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

        Originally posted by LauraKY
        I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

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          #5
          I have had it happen occasionally over my riding career. I've been lucky to have either had my rides taped if my instructor wasn't there or she's been present to watch. She's a judge so I feel that she's a good 'ruler' to measure by; but, not all judges agree; so, on a per movement basis there may be a point of difference here or there. Overall she can usually see 'their reasoning'. That being said there are definitely a very small number of judges I learn that I probably should never show under again.
          Ranch of Last Resort

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            #6
            I have had a judge tell me not to worry unless several judges say the same thing. But for the most part my trainer and judges are on the same page!

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              #7
              Horses can perform differently in a competition compared to a lesson and different at home.
              It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

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                #8
                very rare, my trainers show at all levels and one is a judge!
                Humans dont mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. Sebastian Junger

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                  #9
                  If you are "always" getting different feedback I would be concerned about my instruction.

                  But, a lot depends upon the differences and how your instructor explains the differences. For example, your instructor may know that if you try to be forward that the horse gets quick and you get unsettled, so a less forward, steady test is good for her at this point. (While you work on the issue) The judge may then say "Needs to be more forward" but your instructor should be able to explain why you are doing well for where you are in your training.

                  Absent a good explanation, lots of different judge's comments that differ significantly from your instructor's comments would indicate to me that you are not getting the kind of instruction that will allow you to show and progress correctly.
                  Last edited by MsM; Jul. 6, 2020, 03:57 PM.

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                    #10
                    This is a good time to evaluate the scores your instructors get when they show.

                    I know there are people out there who just looooove throwing their money at people who can't ride their way past a 55, and they are *sure* that their instructor is doing it classically and everyone else is doing it wrong, but maybe the judges are on to something.
                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by strangewings View Post
                      (Almost) every instructor I have had has said to slow the horse down. Every judge I have had has said my horse is not forward enough. The judges were right.
                      Both are correct. You need to slow down to improve strength and balance that allows more power to build.
                      www.settlementfarm.us

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by strangewings View Post
                        (Almost) every instructor I have had has said to slow the horse down. Every judge I have had has said my horse is not forward enough. The judges were right.
                        People are conflating two different disciplines: Competing and Training:

                        (a) A judge evaluates a performance against a standard at a COMPETITION.
                        (b) A trainer evaluates the weaknesses and needs of a horse/rider pair for TRAINING.

                        Competing and training are two different disciplines.

                        Competing requires a rider/trainer need to excel in "ring craft." Eg., to evaluate how to best present the horse to maximize its strong points an minimize its weaknesses. Things like how to enter the ring....if a horse has a better canter right or left, one enters in that lead. If a horse needs a reminder to engage the inside hind, then riding in a slight shoulder-fore position prepares the horse for transitions....etc. A competition is a performance to be judged against a standard.

                        Just like in an academic exam, the normal guidance is to go thru the test and answer all you can (because it plays to your strengths), then go back and work the questions you aren't sure about. This optimizes test time and plays to your strengths.....same in a dressage test. Play to the horse's strengths, and minimize its weaknesses.

                        Training requires that the rider/trainer understand the horse's weaknesses in order to improve them. The techniques used for training may vary according to the needs of the horse/rider combination. A movement ridden in training may not be what is required for competing....eg., different levels of steepness or bend for lateral work.....posting or sitting a movement.....in the "correct" or "off" diagonal....etc. These are training tools. Training seeks to find routes to explain a movement to the horse.....NOT to present it for evaluation against a standard.




                        Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                        Alfred A. Montapert

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                          #13
                          A good trainer will train you and the horse at home, but will also help prepare you to compete at a show. In coaching at the show, the trainer will help you to highlight your strengths and minimize weakness.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by dotneko View Post

                            Both are correct. You need to slow down to improve strength and balance that allows more power to build.
                            That only happens if the "slowing" comes through increasing engagement. A lot of instruction does not differentiate, or implies that engagement is a consequence of slowing rather than the other way around.

                            I'll add also another common issue is "fast is not synonymous with forward", but I have never personally struggled with this. I think there are two "types" of riders: Those who tend towards "slow"ness and those who tend towards "fast"ness. "Slow" riders learn engagement best when there is somewhat more emphasis on forward, and "fast" riders get more out of slowness-focused trainers because slowing down is how they start to focus on balance, and then find engagement through improved balance. "Fast" riders who learn engagement through slowness and then themselves become trainers tend to leave the instruction at "slow down" because that is all they needed to hear to figure out the rest. "Slow" riders like myself just get slower!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I always remind myself that the judge comments are tips on what needs to improve to get a higher score. Its not necessarily "you suck and did this whole thing wrong", its "to improve the way your horse goes and make this score higher, work on X". So your trainer helps you get to where you are, the judge tells you where you might want to go next. And sometimes they won't agree. If you trust your trainer though and see a positive improvement in you and your horse, then go with your trainer since, as you said, they see the bigger picture of your journey.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by strangewings View Post
                                (Almost) every instructor I have had has said to slow the horse down. Every judge I have had has said my horse is not forward enough. The judges were right.
                                but of course slowness has nothing to do with lack of forwardness...... jsut like forwardness has nothing to do with speed.

                                and now I see I am not the first to remark on this..... on well.....
                                Last edited by lorilu; Jul. 3, 2020, 01:40 PM. Reason: edited because I read all the great comments that I am agreeing with!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Often, when I had a not as knowledgeable instructor. The discrepancy mainly revolved around the instructor wanting the horse too slow and too on the forehand in the belief that this was more “round” and brought his back up. The judges wanted to see the horse much more forward with much more self-carriage and more uphill balance (was showing First Level at the time).

                                  Since changing instructors I have ridden in front of judges only a handful of times but in each case their comments mirrored those of my instructor almost verbatim.

                                  I wouldn’t worry too much about a one-off, but if you are consistently getting the same feedback from different judges and it contradicts what your coach tells you, then discuss with your coach the pros and cons of trying things the judge’s way. And consider whether it’s time to look for a more advanced instructor.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                    This is a good time to evaluate the scores your instructors get when they show.

                                    I know there are people out there who just looooove throwing their money at people who can't ride their way past a 55, and they are *sure* that their instructor is doing it classically and everyone else is doing it wrong, but maybe the judges are on to something.
                                    I cannot like this post enough! Of course this does not apply to ALL instructors and yes, there are valid reasons why they have an occasional low score - especially if showing green or difficult horses.

                                    But IMO there are waaaaaayyyyy too many people out there billing themselves as dressage trainers or coaches who have never successfully trained horses or riders up the levels. They tend to have consistent scores in the mid-50s and tons of excuses to explain why, generally along the theme of “that judge doesn’t know what they are doing,” “correct riding is never rewarded in the dressage ring anymore,” “I got marked down because my horse is XYZ breed/ XYZ colour / not flashy enough.”

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
                                      I cannot like this post enough! Of course this does not apply to ALL instructors and yes, there are valid reasons why they have an occasional low score - especially if showing green or difficult horses.

                                      But IMO there are waaaaaayyyyy too many people out there billing themselves as dressage trainers or coaches who have never successfully trained horses or riders up the levels. They tend to have consistent scores in the mid-50s and tons of excuses to explain why, generally along the theme of “that judge doesn’t know what they are doing,” “correct riding is never rewarded in the dressage ring anymore,” “I got marked down because my horse is XYZ breed/ XYZ colour / not flashy enough.”
                                      and adding to that comment..... trainers who bring clients to shows way before they are ready to show....... or maybe way before they are ready for that level. "Oh, he has a change? Lets do third!!" As a scribe I have seen too much of this......

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        If you've shown under multiple R or S judges and gotten consistent feedback, it's pretty safe to say that your lessons should be working towards addressing that. There are multiple roads to Rome, but your trainer should be able to explain what you are doing to progress towards meeting the standards of the level.

                                        Comment

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