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Bob McDonald Banned from USEF through Safe Sport

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    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post

    I am continually gobsmacked that people who are defending the accused, or else people like this poster who are not defending them but just considering the SS process, suggest a trial, or a full-on law enforcement investigation.

    If a SS investigation finds the accusations credible enough to take action, LE and the prosecutor may well find the same. Do people not realize that the SS process, even if it results in a ban, is far, far kinder to the accused than law enforcement and a prosecutor? That the end result of LE involvement could be prison?
    This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

    A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.

    If you had cared to read previous posts of mine on this topic you'd see I am like the first in line to claim it could be ok to accept some collateral damage in regards to complete innocent people when on a quest to clean up the sport.
    I love horses, eventing and good dining!
    Blogging at www.eventingmania.com

    Comment


      Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

      This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

      A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.

      If you had cared to read previous posts of mine on this topic you'd see I am like the first in line to claim it could be ok to accept some collateral damage in regards to complete innocent people when on a quest to clean up the sport.
      I find it difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Your point is lost to me.
      Perhaps the non-stop fireworks are affecting my comprehension of the English language.

      Comment


        Many on here who advocate for “innocent until proven guilty” are forgetting that there Is a statute of limitation, and it’s usually ten years. These guys cannot be arrested on probable cause and they remain in the public with the likelihood (if they are guilty) of sexual misconduct with other minors. Removing them from the sport subsequent to a thorough investigation is the only way to try to help the minors in the sport. And keep in mind that these guys are STILL free to prey on minors even after the ban, but at least parents are made aware.

        Having a chance to appeal and clear one’s name is fair, given the alternative of no remedy at all for the victim. Someone who is innocent would serve himself or herself better by publicly acknowledging and supporting the importance and purpose of SS while cooperating with the process and moving confidently forward through an appeal.
        Banter whenever you want to banter....canter whenever you want to canter.

        Comment


          Originally posted by NotGrandPrixYet View Post
          Someone who is innocent would serve himself or herself better by publicly acknowledging and supporting the importance and purpose of SS while cooperating with the process and moving confidently forward through an appeal.
          This bears repeating.

          "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

          Comment


            Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

            This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

            A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.

            If you had cared to read previous posts of mine on this topic you'd see I am like the first in line to claim it could be ok to accept some collateral damage in regards to complete innocent people when on a quest to clean up the sport.
            Except in this case there is no presumption of innocence at this point. They have been found to have engaged in sexual misconduct with minors. End of.

            They don’t need to go through a court of law to face professional consequences of misconduct. Lawyers, teachers, doctors, stockbrokers...people in all kinds of professions lose their licenses and their right to practice due to misconduct all the time, without ever setting foot in a courtroom.

            Comment


              Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post

              Except in this case there is no presumption of innocence at this point. They have been found to have engaged in sexual misconduct with minors. End of.

              They don’t need to go through a court of law to face professional consequences of misconduct. Lawyers, teachers, doctors, stockbrokers...people in all kinds of professions lose their licenses and their right to practice due to misconduct all the time, without ever setting foot in a courtroom.
              Why is this so difficult for some people to understand?

              "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

              Comment


                Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

                This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

                A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.

                If you had cared to read previous posts of mine on this topic you'd see I am like the first in line to claim it could be ok to accept some collateral damage in regards to complete innocent people when on a quest to clean up the sport.
                What country doesn’t allow for plea bargains and where does one not get fired from a job or have their professional license suspended until after a trial court has found them guilty?

                Comment


                  Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

                  This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

                  A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.
                  In the United States, prosecutors have an enormous amount of power and also discretion. This includes the power to hold someone in jail before the trial, in some cases for years before the trial, in some cases for longer than the sentence would be for the alleged crime... if you get enough continuances.

                  Among other things, they sometimes use this power to force plea bargains from people who are not guilty, including people who would likely win if their case got to trial. Of course, this power works strongest on people without a lot of resources - the people whose kids will go to foster care if they are in prison, the people whose attorneys are overworked and don't have an open schedule, the people whose families have no income if their breadwinner is in jail.

                  Not to mention the possibility that you might not survive the arrest, of course.

                  But all that stuff happens to Other People, right?
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                    The rich and powerful who own or ride are already lawyer-ed up and the people who train the rich and powerful likely also train the lawyers of the rich and powerful who make up much of the H/J and Dressage elite, so bringing lawyers and the legal system into it just puts them in a position of power and there are many who can exercise undue influence on the legal system to have charges dropped, in the event of "an official trial". Without name dropping, I did some digging into one of the AFE supporters who stands with George and found a bunch of - nothing overly serious - dismissed traffic charges attached to their name that would be annoying inconveniences to trouble them later down the line. These dismissals were likely due to the person's social status in the local Who's Who, which would give them social connections to the prosecutor's office in the locality in which they reside.
                    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

                      This poster - which you so kindly refer me to - live in a society where you're presumed innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law!

                      A society in which you unlike the American court system cannot plea bargain your way out of trouble in any kind of way. It is a world of difference.

                      If you had cared to read previous posts of mine on this topic you'd see I am like the first in line to claim it could be ok to accept some collateral damage in regards to complete innocent people when on a quest to clean up the sport.
                      The criminal courts are used for criminal violation of state or federal laws, and can result in fines or incarceration.

                      You don’t have the choice to opt in or opt out of those laws.

                      When you voluntarily join the USEF, you voluntarily agree to a code of conduct that overlaps somewhat, but not perfectly, with criminal statutes. In the case of child sex abuse, SS automatically notifies the criminal justice system if the incident was within the statute of limitations. If the incident is not within the criminal statute of limitations, or if the criminal prosecutors think the evidence is not strong enough to pursue (given the higher standard of evidence), then SS investigates, and if the respondent wants to protest his innocence, the case goes before a retired judge instead of a current judge for adjudication.

                      I agree with you that the respondent should be presumed innocent until after the arbitration upholds the sanction, or until he declines to appeal, which is the equivalent of pleading guilty.

                      How do you not get that the adjudication of allegations of violation of the code of conduct voluntarily agreed to by the participant is NOT exactly the same as the adjudication of the violation of state and federal laws?

                      The arbitration is not a criminal trial, but it is the analogous adjudication establishing guilt.

                      BigMama1 As before, I am NOT saying that the allegations should be kept secret until after the adjudication.
                      Last edited by YankeeDuchess; Jul. 6, 2020, 07:30 PM.

                      Comment


                        I do not think the appeal is comparable to a guilty plea. It is comparable to the appeal phase, following the rendering of the verdict.


                        That's why it's called an appeal. Because it's appealing the decision.

                        Let me apologize in advance.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                          I do not think the appeal is comparable to a guilty plea. It is comparable to the appeal phase, following the rendering of the verdict.


                          That's why it's called an appeal. Because it's appealing the decision.
                          You’re letting facts get in the way of someone’s alternate facts.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by LexInVA View Post
                            The rich and powerful who own or ride are already lawyer-ed up and the people who train the rich and powerful likely also train the lawyers of the rich and powerful who make up much of the H/J and Dressage elite, so bringing lawyers and the legal system into it just puts them in a position of power and there are many who can exercise undue influence on the legal system to have charges dropped, in the event of "an official trial". Without name dropping, I did some digging into one of the AFE supporters who stands with George and found a bunch of - nothing overly serious - dismissed traffic charges attached to their name that would be annoying inconveniences to trouble them later down the line. These dismissals were likely due to the person's social status in the local Who's Who, which would give them social connections to the prosecutor's office in the locality in which they reside.
                            I doubt Ghislaine Maxwell is going to get off.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                              I doubt Ghislaine Maxwell is going to get off.
                              Maybe not get off totally, but she will sing for a shorter sentence or try for immunity if the evidence she holds has enough weight.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                                Maybe not get off totally, but she will sing for a shorter sentence or try for immunity if the evidence she holds has enough weight.
                                She's already being set up for an early demise.
                                Just reported that she is COVID-109 positive...
                                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
                                  I do not think the appeal is comparable to a guilty plea. It is comparable to the appeal phase, following the rendering of the verdict.


                                  That's why it's called an appeal. Because it's appealing the decision.
                                  Did you see the statement of Dan Hill in response to the AES statement?

                                  SS makes a finding based on its investigation. Their finding is that “the allegations are credible” and based on the finding of the allegations bring credible, SS hands down the sanction.

                                  If the respondent thinks the sanction is inappropriate, either because he professes innocence or because he thinks the sanction is too harsh for the misconduct, he can appeal the sanction imposed by SS.

                                  The word “appeal” is more general that the narrow sense of appealing the verdict in a trial. So yes, it’s an appeal of the decision of SS to issue a lifetime ban, but not an appeal of a verdict. SS conducts the investigation and decides on the sanction, but does not adjudicate. If the respondent thinks the sanction unfair for either reason, he asks for the third party adjudication by the arbitrator.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by TheMoo View Post

                                    Maybe not get off totally, but she will sing for a shorter sentence or try for immunity if the evidence she holds has enough weight.
                                    She ain’t getting immunity.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                                      She's already being set up for an early demise.
                                      Just reported that she is COVID-109 positive...
                                      Epstein’s “suicide” was awfully suspicious. They better have a 24/7 suicide watch plus 24/7 cameras on her.

                                      The likelihood of her dying from COVID is not that great.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post

                                        She's already being set up for an early demise.
                                        Just reported that she is COVID-109 positive...
                                        I'm not seeing any news reports on this- where did you see this published?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                                          Epstein’s “suicide” was awfully suspicious. They better have a 24/7 suicide watch plus 24/7 cameras on her.

                                          The likelihood of her dying from COVID is not that great.
                                          Yeah, if she commits suicide no one, and I mean no one, will believe it.... It will be interesting to follow this power play. I am so glad they got her, she needs to be in jail for what she did to those poor women.

                                          Comment

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