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Horse ets spookier with work

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    Originally posted by kande04 View Post

    I don't believe they're attempting to communicate so much as they're simply reacting because they're afraid for their safety.

    They don't need to intend to communicate for us to receive information... Iow receive communication.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

    Comment


      A horse that gets spookier with work, as the OP indicates is the problem with her horse, would indicate that instead of being worked toward and into a relaxed state, the opposite is happening. The more the horse is worked, the more tension he develops. He's becoming increasingly tense which makes him increasingly uncomfortable and increasingly protective of himself. A tense horse is always more likely to spook than a relaxed one. I think sometimes it's a bit of the "chicken and the egg" conundrum: Is something spooking him and making him tense or is he already tense and therefore more prone to spooking, even at things he's seen a million times? In my experience it's the latter. Once the horse is in a posture of tension (high-headed, "vertical" body posture, wide eyes, tight muscles) he is in a mental and physical state of discomfort, and that is going to make him much more reactive to everything around him.

      So, if the way the horse is being ridden is increasing his tension and therefore his likelihood of spooking, then one has to go back and closely analyze what is happening during the ride that increases the tension and reactivity in the horse.

      Personally, I think the horse sounds like he's not as broke as his training bills suggest he ought to be. From the OP's posts, it sounds like a lot of this horse's training experiences were not positive ones. He was started, then had to be restarted, put one trainer in the hospital, another had to stop riding him due to pregnancy, we saw the NH experience even after this horse had "professional training"...and now these trainers are throwing their hands up and saying they've "got nothing" to help the OP with this horse.

      At some point the human beings in this horse's history have to be held responsible for what he has become. And that's okay. We're humans and we make mistakes. The hardest part is admitting those mistakes, and being open to figuring out how to turn them around to help the horse. Trainers and riders need to be humble above all else. The horses never lie. They'll show us really quickly whether we're doing a good job or not. And when they do, we have to swallow our pride and accept that it's our responsibility to admit our mistakes and work to learn and grow from them.

      That's all anyone can do. But it takes a certain mindset. No excuses. No blaming. Just accept it and move on.

      Comment


        Was giving your issue some more thought whilst out walking my dogs this weekend and was thinking specifically about the issues with upping the work. JLu, can you elaborate a bit on the type of work that appears to get him more spooky? I.e. is it more collected work that gets his blood up or is it something else? There may be some physical component at play (PSSM? Lyme?) but it may also be that some work puts him more in flight mode than others.

        Another question for you as well. What type of movement does he find soothing? My very spooky but eventually super successful gelding "self-soothed" in miles and miles of nose-to-wall leg yield. He had to engage his brain instead of just relying on his ridiculous athleticism (this may sound familiar) and eventually would soften and breathe. My tricky mare, on the other hand, finds relaxation in the extended trot of all things. She gets bottled-up about the collected work until she's ready to explode if you don't send her out on the rail in an approximation of the young-horse auction trots.

        My recommendation to you is to find the thing he enjoys doing and use that to engage his brain and get him back to you before the spooks start in earnest. I always prefer a more-forward activity over something stationary esp. with the spook-from-nowhere sorts-- gives you a fighting chance of staying onboard, and generally they need a go-forward outlet anyway.

        Comment


          Originally posted by kande04 View Post

          I don't believe they're attempting to communicate so much as they're simply reacting because they're afraid for their safety.

          Of course. The idea is to get them to think instead of just reacting.

          Whether forcing them to look away from something they fear has any effect, positive or negative, I don't know, but I don't do that to my horses unless/until their level of fear is low enough so that I don't have to pressure them much to inspire them to go along with what I want.

          No one said make them look away from the scary thing. We said keep them bending so that they can’t just look around wherever they please. That helps to avoid explosions because while you are bending them, they are focused on the rider and not anything else.

          So it takes awhile (years and patience) but their hypervigilance does decrease. What I don't know however, is if it would decrease more/sooner if I pressured them more (maybe that would depend on how I went about pressuring them more), or if it would stay the same or get worse?

          You don’t pressure the horse in the way you are thinking. You are riding in a manner that keeps their brain engaged on the ride. Not just trotting or cantering around the ring in endless circles.

          But, nothing I want to do is important enough to me that I'm willing to push a fearful horse too far out of his comfort zone, because there are just too many fun things we can do without making our training time into a crappy experience for my horse.
          Who suggested pushing the horse too far out of his comfort zone? We are suggesting little by little teaching the horse to think through the problem instead of exploding over it. We are also suggesting ways to get the horse to relax.

          I’m not willing to do “fun” things on a horse that will blow up. That needs to be fixed before doing “fun” things. If people are unwilling to do that, they need to find a better situation for the horse. It’s completely unfair to the horse.

          The entire ride will be a crappy experience for your horse if they are tense and worried.

          Don't try this at home.

          Comment


            Originally posted by J-Lu View Post

            Thanks, I'm considering that this is the horse that I have. Rather than being defensive, I'm a bit cavalier. "Oh, you've been by this 50 times and act up now? Feel that spur?" I'm a pretty brave rider.

            This guy can go on the buckle if you'd prefer Western Pleasure, but has excellent gaits. It all just goes to hell when he spooks sometimes. He actually prefers contact when he's afraid. I've done s-o and renvers at the GoG, but you can sede in his eyes (wrinkles above them and whites of his eyes) that he's mostly looking for scary things and is genuinely worried. He works much better when he's bent away. I'm so sorry for the loss of your guy at only 19!
            I've followed this whole thread, and this really struck a chord with me. If he is genuinely worried, then this doesn't seem like an effort to avoid work. Have you tried acknowledging this worry (instead of being cavalier) and working on his state of mind? I worked with a trainer who said that in a herd situation, the horse that is the most aware wins. Maybe he thinks you are unaware of the tiger hiding behind the GoD? And he just thinks you are a bit dim and need a really big sign to see it? <-- That is meant as a joke, please don't take my levity as not taking your plight seriously.

            Also, as someone with anxiety issues myself, perhaps talking to your vet about better living through chemistry is a good idea. There are a lot of options now that might help you and him have a better time during your rides.
            When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Balmonty View Post

              What horses don't seem to be able to cope with is gut pain. Maybe it is their design so they don't get complacent as a prey animal. Maybe if they didn't get an acid splash in the gut every time a lion or tiger jumped out, they would get complacent and not instantly react and run. Their biggest weakness of this vulnerable gut area prone to ulcers, might also be the kick in the guts they need to keep them on their toes so they survive.

              I know you said you have treated him for ulcers and didn't really notice a difference, but if they have suffered something for a long time and have a low tolerance of it, it can take months for them to start trusting that the problem has gone. In all my years of training horses it seems that gut pain is the biggest trigger than any other pain for bad behaviour. So many riders say "he went past that and did a massive shy and nothing even happened". We only think nothing happened, but we can't see pain. No doubt something did happen to them. The fact that your horse gets worse as the ride goes on is consistent with acid splashes/ulcer pain. If he usually gets a gut pain at a particular part of the arena, he will be weary of that spot. And if the gut pain is intense, it will cause him to run away or bolt from the situation.

              I note you said that sometimes when you saddle him he bucks or otherwise refuses to bend. He sounds very much like my problem horse that ended up being treated for ulcers. Not with the normal oral stuff though, with the new weekly injection that has a much better success rate. I had spent over 18months trying to figure out what was wrong with him. If you look at my thread I put up the other day called "Injectable Omeprazole . can ulcers cause back pain..." you can see the video from week 1of what he would do when the saddle went on and see if that looks like your boy. I didn't ad in my post but he used to be super spooky to ride, he was always looking for gremlins around the arena. Now he can even handle the dogs running around and the water pump coming on when we ride past.

              Anyway, may be totally irrelevant for your boy but just thought I would share my thoughts with you. As I said, I don't think horses are naughty without pain, and I also think that horses will mask skeletal pain and still work for us.

              PS J-Lu Good luck!

              I feel the need to comment on this knowing the OP will most likely dismiss it but it might help others.

              I have a young horse who has been pretty easy so far. Going well w/t/c under saddle. This past winter he started with some negative behavior. A little buck, pinning his ears, resisting the leg a little. I attributed it to cold windy weather, getting worked less, turning 4 etc. Then he actually bucked me off. I had the vet out just to cover all of my bases before getting after the behavior and much to my surprise he had major ulcers. Most everyone has been shocked, he's had an easy life, he's a QH, he doesn't act like an ulcery horse but on his scope there they were. We treated for a month and they were mostly gone but not totally so continued treatment. I gave him time off, then started just adding some hand walking and grazing and then some groundwork.

              After totally cleared I attempted a ride but in his brain he is still anticipating pain so guess what? We're going back to the beginning. There is no shame in slowing down, taking expectations down a notch and working on basics. I'll be working with him from the ground up to essentially re-break him even though I had a very well mannered broke horse.

              My horse really internalizes his processing and it's very easy to push him too hard because externally he looks ok but he's not. Bucking is him screaming, him pinning his ears or resisting a little bit was him trying to tell me something before he had to scream it at me. I think your horse is trying to tell you something isn't right. Not that he's a special snowflake that you have to work around and no one can figure out but that he wants you to listen to him. I can tell by your posts that you love him a lot and are willing to change and work with him. I think it would help to take a few steps back and really really work on listening to him.

              My horse didn't like me currying under his belly to get mud off, I thought it was because it's more sensitive of an area and covered in mud. Guess what? The pressure point for his stomach is there, when the vet pressed on it he about jumped out of his skin and now that the ulcers have been treated he's completely fine with it being curried. This whole ordeal with him has really taught me that the little things matter, don't wait until he's screaming but listen to the whispering and small indications of them trying to communicate with you.

              Comment


                OP
                Post a video so we can get an idea of what's going on.
                it would be helpful.
                Certified Guacophobe

                Comment


                  Well, I'm enjoying the thread and it's great to hear how others approach issues with their horses. It's definitely giving me great ideas if I ever need to utilize them with my own horse!

                  Comment


                    I understand the thought process behind "making a horse work" when they're acting spooky in a corner.

                    However.

                    It does not work for every horse. Some horses replace the scary thing with what you're asking them to do. They can forget about the scary part because they're distracted.

                    Others add your pressure to the pressure they already feel. That's OP's horse. So without being able to slow down and go back to the dead nuts beginning and teach this horse how to properly handle and shed anxiety, anything done is entirely futile.

                    Horse is scared. Genuinely scared. "Feel that spur?" Never been taught how to handle his emotions, everyone was always in a hurry. "Look away from it, put your shoulder towards it (horses mind: but then it can eat me and I won't even see it coming first!!), NOW". Now this horse has a real reason to be scared. Cue the downward spiral, because he's the type that is going to amp UP and never down - at least not without being taught how to do so.

                    How unfair to him.

                    Every horse is different. Clearly what's been done with this one has not worked. So here we are.

                    Way back in the beginning someone mentioned the rabbit theory. That's what I'm talking about. He doesn't know how to remove anxiety. His just keeps stacking up. And the harder you get on him, the more you ask of him, the worse things get. It's how he's wired. If you don't fix the inability to "let it go", it won't ever improve - no matter how much pressure you put on him.

                    And OP dismisses everything being suggested. Because clearly her trainers are doing 100% correct by the horse... who still won't consistently go by that gate.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by stargzng386 View Post

                      I feel the need to comment on this knowing the OP will most likely dismiss it but it might help others.

                      I have a young horse who has been pretty easy so far. Going well w/t/c under saddle. This past winter he started with some negative behavior. A little buck, pinning his ears, resisting the leg a little. I attributed it to cold windy weather, getting worked less, turning 4 etc. Then he actually bucked me off. I had the vet out just to cover all of my bases before getting after the behavior and much to my surprise he had major ulcers. Most everyone has been shocked, he's had an easy life, he's a QH, he doesn't act like an ulcery horse but on his scope there they were. We treated for a month and they were mostly gone but not totally so continued treatment. I gave him time off, then started just adding some hand walking and grazing and then some groundwork.

                      After totally cleared I attempted a ride but in his brain he is still anticipating pain so guess what? We're going back to the beginning. There is no shame in slowing down, taking expectations down a notch and working on basics. I'll be working with him from the ground up to essentially re-break him even though I had a very well mannered broke horse.

                      My horse really internalizes his processing and it's very easy to push him too hard because externally he looks ok but he's not. Bucking is him screaming, him pinning his ears or resisting a little bit was him trying to tell me something before he had to scream it at me. I think your horse is trying to tell you something isn't right. Not that he's a special snowflake that you have to work around and no one can figure out but that he wants you to listen to him. I can tell by your posts that you love him a lot and are willing to change and work with him. I think it would help to take a few steps back and really really work on listening to him.

                      My horse didn't like me currying under his belly to get mud off, I thought it was because it's more sensitive of an area and covered in mud. Guess what? The pressure point for his stomach is there, when the vet pressed on it he about jumped out of his skin and now that the ulcers have been treated he's completely fine with it being curried. This whole ordeal with him has really taught me that the little things matter, don't wait until he's screaming but listen to the whispering and small indications of them trying to communicate with you.
                      Sorry to pull this off track, but in my barn (~20 horses) I have started adding Purina Outlast to first the show horses, then the youngsters being started and now everyone gets it.
                      it's a top dress gastric supplement and while I haven't noticed a difference with my steady Eddie's, the quietly anxious horses have really bloomed. A cup at each meal and a snack before work and everyone is happier.
                      Ymmv

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                        I understand the thought process behind "making a horse work" when they're acting spooky in a corner.

                        However.

                        It does not work for every horse. Some horses replace the scary thing with what you're asking them to do. They can forget about the scary part because they're distracted.

                        Others add your pressure to the pressure they already feel. That's OP's horse. So without being able to slow down and go back to the dead nuts beginning and teach this horse how to properly handle and shed anxiety, anything done is entirely futile.

                        Horse is scared. Genuinely scared. "Feel that spur?" Never been taught how to handle his emotions, everyone was always in a hurry. "Look away from it, put your shoulder towards it (horses mind: but then it can eat me and I won't even see it coming first!!), NOW". Now this horse has a real reason to be scared. Cue the downward spiral, because he's the type that is going to amp UP and never down - at least not without being taught how to do so.

                        How unfair to him.

                        Every horse is different. Clearly what's been done with this one has not worked. So here we are.

                        Way back in the beginning someone mentioned the rabbit theory. That's what I'm talking about. He doesn't know how to remove anxiety. His just keeps stacking up. And the harder you get on him, the more you ask of him, the worse things get. It's how he's wired. If you don't fix the inability to "let it go", it won't ever improve - no matter how much pressure you put on him.

                        And OP dismisses everything being suggested. Because clearly her trainers are doing 100% correct by the horse... who still won't consistently go by that gate.
                        Agreed. I have met very few people that can sympathetically fix a horse like this. I also would assume a gelding is easier than a mare.
                        Don't try this at home.

                        Comment


                          J-Lu, I think you have read the gamut of ideas and experiences from people with horses like your gelding. I'll probably raise some hackles with my suggestions, but here goes.

                          Another person on this thread mentioned methocarbamol, a muscle relaxant. I found out it is used regularly by BNTs in Florida. I'm not sure how you feel about using something like that, but I think you are at the point where you may need to say "what the heck."

                          I mentioned my hyper-vigilant, spooky gelding. I started him on MagRestore years ago and it did take off the edge. As a daily supplement it is good, however, I used Nupafeed magnesium paste last year when showing my mare. She is more hot than spooky and found the warm-up arena at shows overwhelming. My trainer gives it to all of her horses at shows and I decided it was worth a try. It made a huge difference in my mare's behavior. She was very relaxed and more focused instead of tense and strong. Maybe you could give that a try to see if it will help ease his tension.

                          Also, I do believe when horses are constantly tense, they can produce more stomach acid. I think another person mentioned this, too. I had a bag of Daily Gold Stress Relief in my garage (I won it at a show), so I thought why not use it and started feeding it to my gelding. It's a clay product that acts as an acid buffer. He is a fence walker and very herd bound. His behavior did change! I even did an experiment and stopped feeding it for a few days. The behavior returned, so I added it back to his diet and his behavior mellowed.I'm a skeptic who will "believe it when I see it," and I believe it works for my gelding. Under saddle he has been much better, too.

                          Like you, I have been tearing my hair out over my gelding's behavior for many years. I bought him when he was three and he's always been wired differently. Super easy for me to start and train, but very spooky. I have owned and shown lots of horses and only once had another one like him. He was Lipizzan/TB cross. I sold that horse to a lower level rider who put less pressure on him, but he was still quirky.

                          Your horse now has an ingrained pattern of behavior. Whether you use a supplement or some other type of behavior modification, you have to break the pattern. Again, I'm only writing about what worked with my gelding. Believe me, I share your frustration of having a beautiful, talented horse who is an incredible challenge.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by RhythmNCruise View Post
                            A horse that gets spookier with work, as the OP indicates is the problem with her horse, would indicate that instead of being worked toward and into a relaxed state, the opposite is happening. The more the horse is worked, the more tension he develops. He's becoming increasingly tense which makes him increasingly uncomfortable and increasingly protective of himself. A tense horse is always more likely to spook than a relaxed one. I think sometimes it's a bit of the "chicken and the egg" conundrum: Is something spooking him and making him tense or is he already tense and therefore more prone to spooking, even at things he's seen a million times? In my experience it's the latter. Once the horse is in a posture of tension (high-headed, "vertical" body posture, wide eyes, tight muscles) he is in a mental and physical state of discomfort, and that is going to make him much more reactive to everything around him.

                            So, if the way the horse is being ridden is increasing his tension and therefore his likelihood of spooking, then one has to go back and closely analyze what is happening during the ride that increases the tension and reactivity in the horse.

                            Personally, I think the horse sounds like he's not as broke as his training bills suggest he ought to be. From the OP's posts, it sounds like a lot of this horse's training experiences were not positive ones. He was started, then had to be restarted, put one trainer in the hospital, another had to stop riding him due to pregnancy, we saw the NH experience even after this horse had "professional training"...and now these trainers are throwing their hands up and saying they've "got nothing" to help the OP with this horse.

                            At some point the human beings in this horse's history have to be held responsible for what he has become. And that's okay. We're humans and we make mistakes. The hardest part is admitting those mistakes, and being open to figuring out how to turn them around to help the horse. Trainers and riders need to be humble above all else. The horses never lie. They'll show us really quickly whether we're doing a good job or not. And when they do, we have to swallow our pride and accept that it's our responsibility to admit our mistakes and work to learn and grow from them.

                            That's all anyone can do. But it takes a certain mindset. No excuses. No blaming. Just accept it and move on.
                            Thanks for your incorrect summary and incorrect understanding of the situatinon. *sigh*.
                            Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by cnm161 View Post
                              Was giving your issue some more thought whilst out walking my dogs this weekend and was thinking specifically about the issues with upping the work. JLu, can you elaborate a bit on the type of work that appears to get him more spooky? I.e. is it more collected work that gets his blood up or is it something else? There may be some physical component at play (PSSM? Lyme?) but it may also be that some work puts him more in flight mode than others.

                              Another question for you as well. What type of movement does he find soothing? My very spooky but eventually super successful gelding "self-soothed" in miles and miles of nose-to-wall leg yield. He had to engage his brain instead of just relying on his ridiculous athleticism (this may sound familiar) and eventually would soften and breathe. My tricky mare, on the other hand, finds relaxation in the extended trot of all things. She gets bottled-up about the collected work until she's ready to explode if you don't send her out on the rail in an approximation of the young-horse auction trots.

                              My recommendation to you is to find the thing he enjoys doing and use that to engage his brain and get him back to you before the spooks start in earnest. I always prefer a more-forward activity over something stationary esp. with the spook-from-nowhere sorts-- gives you a fighting chance of staying onboard, and generally they need a go-forward outlet anyway.
                              Thanks, cnm161.

                              You know who started him.

                              He is a hypervigilant horse. He can be spooky on a long rein, but he mostly starts looking around when you ask for more collection and more work. Sometimes he's great, sometimes he uses this as an excuse to not work. There's no physical reason why he can't work. His default is to go into flight mode, and we've made tons of progress on this. He is spooky at the gate and there is no definitive answer why. It's in his mind or he's looking at something 1/4 to 1/2 mile away.

                              Usually, but not always, he is soothed with movements like shoulder-in, leg yields, collection and forward and collection, unusual pattern, things that engage his brain. He's more than physically capable, and the more his brain is engaged the better. But he's very hypervigilant and can spook mightily in a shoulder-in exercise. At something he's passed before. He is very insecure with shoulder-out in the scary place because he can't help but look. He's genuinely worried, you can see in his expression.

                              In the beginning of the ride, he does NOT feel soothing vibes from stretching exercises, but at the end of the ride, he does. Nose to the wall leg yields test his patience beyond a few steps, but he'll side pass along a ground rail.

                              Sometimes he can spook mightily even when going actively forward at things happening 0.5 to a mile away, even when he's seen it before.

                              He can find extended gaits as a blow-off of accumulated steam. I can feel accumulated steam. That's not the issue I'm talking about.
                              Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                                Originally posted by amm2cd View Post

                                Sorry to pull this off track, but in my barn (~20 horses) I have started adding Purina Outlast to first the show horses, then the youngsters being started and now everyone gets it.
                                it's a top dress gastric supplement and while I haven't noticed a difference with my steady Eddie's, the quietly anxious horses have really bloomed. A cup at each meal and a snack before work and everyone is happier.
                                Ymmv
                                Hi there,

                                He's on ration balancer because he's on a very well cared for personal pasture. SOOO different from when he was 4 and we couldn't get enough calories into him. My vet always now says "don't let him get fatter!" Last year, I had his pasture analyzed by EquiAnalytica and adjusted the diet to that. This year, the barn had the pastures lymed and I didn't repeat the measurement, but may in a couple of months. The pastures are dragged, mown and sprayed to enhance grass and get rid of weeds.
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                                  Originally posted by sparkygrace View Post
                                  J-Lu, I think you have read the gamut of ideas and experiences from people with horses like your gelding. I'll probably raise some hackles with my suggestions, but here goes.

                                  Another person on this thread mentioned methocarbamol, a muscle relaxant. I found out it is used regularly by BNTs in Florida. I'm not sure how you feel about using something like that, but I think you are at the point where you may need to say "what the heck."

                                  I mentioned my hyper-vigilant, spooky gelding. I started him on MagRestore years ago and it did take off the edge. As a daily supplement it is good, however, I used Nupafeed magnesium paste last year when showing my mare. She is more hot than spooky and found the warm-up arena at shows overwhelming. My trainer gives it to all of her horses at shows and I decided it was worth a try. It made a huge difference in my mare's behavior. She was very relaxed and more focused instead of tense and strong. Maybe you could give that a try to see if it will help ease his tension.

                                  Also, I do believe when horses are constantly tense, they can produce more stomach acid. I think another person mentioned this, too. I had a bag of Daily Gold Stress Relief in my garage (I won it at a show), so I thought why not use it and started feeding it to my gelding. It's a clay product that acts as an acid buffer. He is a fence walker and very herd bound. His behavior did change! I even did an experiment and stopped feeding it for a few days. The behavior returned, so I added it back to his diet and his behavior mellowed.I'm a skeptic who will "believe it when I see it," and I believe it works for my gelding. Under saddle he has been much better, too.

                                  Like you, I have been tearing my hair out over my gelding's behavior for many years. I bought him when he was three and he's always been wired differently. Super easy for me to start and train, but very spooky. I have owned and shown lots of horses and only once had another one like him. He was Lipizzan/TB cross. I sold that horse to a lower level rider who put less pressure on him, but he was still quirky.

                                  Your horse now has an ingrained pattern of behavior. Whether you use a supplement or some other type of behavior modification, you have to break the pattern. Again, I'm only writing about what worked with my gelding. Believe me, I share your frustration of having a beautiful, talented horse who is an incredible challenge.
                                  Thank you so much, but my horse isn't constantly stressed. He's generally quite relaxed. It's just at this gate and when his work picks up. He is Mr. 90%, as I've mentioned.

                                  I'm not interested in keeping this horse on methocarbamol.

                                  MagRestore didn't work for this horse, as I mentioned numerous times. Nothing in his diet analysis has pointed to suboptimal Mg or any other nutrient.

                                  He's not constantly tense. When he was his most tense and after shipping (at 3) , I had him endoscoped. We thought he'd have huge bloody ulcers. Nope. He had a few mild ulcers and he went on a full regime of omeprazole. No change in behavior.

                                  This horse would be a challenge to most people, solidified by the "easy fixes" offered on this thread. I trust the pros I work with and his health care team.

                                  Thank you for your reply.
                                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                                    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                                    The fact that you wont train the horse you have, not the horse you think or wish you had, speak volumes about your capabilities.

                                    what, is it beneath you to take it down a notch, take it back to the beginning for a minute? See where the hole actually is? It's not admitting defeat, it's being introspective. But hell no, how could you look like such a fool hand walking around. That's for peons, I guess.

                                    Once more, you prove it's all about you and your goals for this horse. It's not about him, and it never was. Me me me.
                                    What a clueless post.
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                                      Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                      Agreed. I have met very few people that can sympathetically fix a horse like this. I also would assume a gelding is easier than a mare.
                                      Oh please.
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                                        What happens/would happen if you longed him by the gate?

                                        What would happen if you planned a short day of 20 meter circles, boxes, loops etc right by the gate?

                                        I’m asking because I had a gelding who would randomly just start spooking 30 minutes into a ride at a tree. Hindsight (I was 16 and his back wasn’t sore to the touch and the saddle fit) I wonder if he had kissing spine. I stopped riding this horse when he attempted to throw himself to the ground because he couldn’t get me off.
                                        Don't try this at home.

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                                          Originally posted by J-Lu View Post

                                          Oh please.
                                          No need to be rude. I’m not the one coming to the internet about my horse despite all the BNTs.
                                          Don't try this at home.

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