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Dressage Trainer Blues

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    Dressage Trainer Blues




    How to Fix the Blues


    Recent articles authored by Adriane Alvord and Angelia Bean describing their personal travails while attempting to forge a career in dressage might create a false impression - that most professionals suffer disproportionately from job-related stress compared to other occupations. Their accounts do serve, however, to open a discussion which has so far been a taboo topic, not openly aired in the equestrian community. The American system funding the already privileged skews prioritization towards short term expediency and inculcates unrealistic expectations. This has been the elephant in the room.


    One spurious piece of evidence for “Dressage Trainer Blues” [DTB] was the hyperbolic assertion that suicide rates are high, based on the CDC finding that farming as an industry group experiences high rates. It’s a vast stretch to imagine dressage trainers are comparable to the agricultural workers in the study which specifically states, “Rates were not calculated for detailed industry groups because many decedents’ industry was classifiable only by major group.”


    DTB should be seen in the context of other extremely competitive industries and sports, in which people who are serious devote long hours and make sacrifices over many years before they achieve success, whether economically, or on a podium. Just like the process of obtaining any advanced degree, students when young work almost constantly and often need part time jobs for income. To achieve the very pinnacle of success on an international field demands even more - utter devotion and lifelong stamina. In fact, dressage riders and trainers are at a great advantage compared to other sports because we can continue to improve and achieve over decades. Debbie McDonald was 50 when she went to her first Olympics.


    An overview of the methods of supporting and promoting competitors in the US would be useful to identify areas that need improvement.


    The US system, as propagated by USEF, is mired in the notion that success equates with competing at the FEI levels. Juniors, Young Riders, and U25 all put the emphasis on teaching people how to compete a trained horse to achieve that standard. The tests are upper level tests so the only way that a child will be able to compete at that level is if their parents buy them a trained horse. The young riders are not doing the training themselves - nor, critically, are they learning to train.


    As a result, when they then graduate from the Young Riders and become a professional, they are entirely dependent on a rich sponsor buying them a trained horse to compete. This is also a problem at the very top and why our current prospects at the elite level are looking a bit meager. Even our team members rely on wealthy sponsors to buy them trained horses. There is a limited pipeline of quality young horses coming up. Over half our team at the last Olympics and WEG were riding horses which they did not themselves train. 


    When professionals have the ability to train a horse, they can partner with one of the many breeders in this country who are producing quality horses and train the young horses up, gain recognition and success. It is financially beneficial for both when the horse is sold. This is a method to promote both professionals and breeders, and to provide the kind of quality horses you see more often in Europe.


    Also leading to deceptive expectations are equine college degrees, that encourage students to commit to exorbitant loans while basically teaching them how to manage a school barn and ride/train school horses. If the goal is to teach beginner riders in a school setting, that’s fine - but if they think this expensive education will garner them experience to effectively run a show barn, and ride/train sport horses when they graduate, they are often disappointed. They find they are lacking essential practical knowledge of elite sport horses. These students would be much better served to be a working student and get real world knowledge, to make real connections and develop networks which will pay off when they go out on their own. An equine degree is not a useful pedigree on a resumé, it garners no respect from professionals in the show world.


    It would be an improvement for the sport overall if the USEF put more emphasis on the training of horses as the goal, whether through the young/developing horse program, or Lendon Grays D4K program. Both of these programs are beneficial for professionals striving for increased presence, and for talented children who aren’t provided a fancy trained horse. The YH program can bring national recognition to trainers who are unknown. The networking at the USEF championships and opportunities to meet trainers/breeders/ and potential clients is invaluable. Unfortunately, the Junior/YR/U25 program is giving assistance to kids who already have the financial means to pursue their goals, and denies them the real experience training young horses to forge a path forward if they turn pro. 


    It is sad that many disillusioned YR graduates leave horses all together, while the majority of trainers running successful training businesses did not come through the YR program since they did not have the financial means to participate. But because they learned how to train horses they are better equipped to run a successful business when they turn professional. Also, they aren't expecting to compete in international shows right away, and understand that success is a product of hard work.



    A greater emphasis on training experience going forward will enhance the ability of US riders to diversify their portfolio with horses they have trained themselves rather than relying on a single patron’s generosity, and overall will enhance our ability to compete with the superior European approach. Let’s hope that our community united around a wonderful sport can begin to consider, openly and together, the best ways to augment and improve the tools we have to encourage greater equity, comity, and ultimate excellence. When goals are process oriented rather than result oriented, some of the stress on all participants in our world of dressage should be reduced.

    #2
    Nailed it. And thank you.

    Also, this all has happened already in the history of the hunter/jumper industry. They seemed to have had a 50-70 year head start on dressage when it comes to a sort of "Industrial Revolution" in the horse training where buying the quick way to top results become *the* tail that wags many dogs in various parts of the dressage industry.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

    Comment


      #3
      Interesting perspective.


      Re... The American system funding the already privileged skews prioritization towards short term expediency and inculcates unrealistic expectations. This has been the elephant in the room.
      I hate to break it to you; but if you own a horse, you are "privileged" it's only a matter of degree.


      An overview of the methods of supporting and promoting competitors in the US would be useful to identify areas that need improvement.
      I think it's also important to keep in mind is the purpose of USEF. From the USEF website:

      "US Equestrian is dedicated to uniting the equestrian community, honoring achievement, and serving as guardians of equestrian sport. Since its inception in 1917, US Equestrian has been dedicated to pursuing excellence and promoting growth, all while providing and maintaining a safe and level playing field for both its equine and human athletes.

      US Equestrian trains, selects, and funds our United States Equestrian Team, which consistently wins medals at the highest level of international competition, including the Olympic Games. US Equestrian also licenses equestrian competitions of all levels across the United States each year."


      The US system, as propagated by USEF, is mired in the notion that success equates with competing at the FEI levels...
      News flash: international competition, including the Olympic Games, is at the FEI levels.

      As a result, when they then graduate from the Young Riders and become a professional, they are entirely dependent on a rich sponsor buying them a trained horse to compete.
      Nope. It sure is easier if they have a rich sponsor, but there are other options. Granted, they all involve access to large amounts of cash, but we're back to the first point: it's an expensive sport.

      This is also a problem at the very top and why our current prospects at the elite level are looking a bit meager. Even our team members rely on wealthy sponsors to buy them trained horses. There is a limited pipeline of quality young horses coming up. Over half our team at the last Olympics and WEG were riding horses which they did not themselves train.
      I think our current prospects at the elite level look pretty good, but that's just my opinion. I have no idea how many Olympic and WEG riders from other countries trained their own horses from the start; do you? I'd be astonished if it were radically different from the US. Actually, the only one I can think of is Laura Graves, maybe Catherine Haddad.

      When professionals have the ability to train a horse, they can partner with one of the many breeders in this country who are producing quality horses and train the young horses up, gain recognition and success. It is financially beneficial for both when the horse is sold. This is a method to promote both professionals and breeders, and to provide the kind of quality horses you see more often in Europe.
      This is all true and there is absolutely nothing stopping that from happening today. Personally, I think there are more quality horses in Europe for several reasons none of which have to do with top riders not training their own horses from the start. Things like; it's actually a business there, more of a horse culture, they have a century or so head start on the US.

      What I think is going to revolutionize the dressage industry in the U.S. is when multiple U.S. bred horses make a BIG SPLASH. It just hasn't happened yet.

      Also leading to deceptive expectations are equine college degrees, that encourage students to commit to exorbitant loans while basically teaching them how to manage a school barn and ride/train school horses. .. An equine degree is not a useful pedigree on a resumé, it garners no respect from professionals in the show world.
      While I agree that an equine degree, or frankly any degree from any school, pales in comparison to demonstrated performance, I wonder if you have actual data to support your last assertion. If you want to talk about "deceptive expectations" regarding college degrees, talk to a fine arts or social science graduate.

      It would be an improvement for the sport overall if the USEF put more emphasis on the training of horses as the goal, whether through the young/developing horse program, or Lendon Grays D4K program. Both of these programs are beneficial for professionals striving for increased presence, and for talented children who aren’t provided a fancy trained horse. The YH program can bring national recognition to trainers who are unknown. The networking at the USEF championships and opportunities to meet trainers/breeders/ and potential clients is invaluable. Unfortunately, the Junior/YR/U25 program is giving assistance to kids who already have the financial means to pursue their goals, and denies them the real experience training young horses to forge a path forward if they turn pro.
      Yes, but it's not a need-based program.

      It is sad that many disillusioned YR graduates leave horses all together, while the majority of trainers running successful training businesses did not come through the YR program since they did not have the financial means to participate. But because they learned how to train horses they are better equipped to run a successful business when they turn professional. Also, they aren't expecting to compete in international shows right away, and understand that success is a product of hard work.
      Why is this sad and how many YR grads are disillusioned and leave horses altogether? I do not believe there are sufficient people with the interest or finances to support the number of trainers around already and that most trainers out there simply aren't that great having NOT learned how to train horses because they had no access to sufficient education for a variety of reasons. Also, I assume you do not intend to imply that our current elite riders do not "understand that success is a product of hard work." You make many broad sweeping generalizations.

      A greater emphasis on training experience going forward will enhance the ability of US riders to diversify their portfolio with horses they have trained themselves rather than relying on a single patron’s generosity, and overall will enhance our ability to compete with the superior European approach. Let’s hope that our community united around a wonderful sport can begin to consider, openly and together, the best ways to augment and improve the tools we have to encourage greater equity, comity, and ultimate excellence. When goals are process oriented rather than result oriented, some of the stress on all participants in our world of dressage should be reduced.
      I think you have an admirable goal, increasing the quality of training in the U.S, and I'm a huge fan of process, but the reality is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The reason we have shows and get scores is to assess how the training is going. You make it sound like anyone could have success if they just had a rich sponsor to buy them a made horse and that simply is not true.

      Again, I don't believe there is that big of a market for dressage trainers. Sad, but apparently true.

      I'd put a horse in training with any of the elite riders if I could afford it. Truly exceptional horses are born, not made through training. Yes, training can improve a horse or ruin them, but if the horse doesn't have international talent/potential to start with the best trainer in the world isn't going to get them to the Olympics. Sometimes riders have access to the truly exceptional horse from the start, and are able to recognize it, I suspect most of the time they do not. It seems far more economical to me, instead of investing years and effort on a horse that may not be international quality, to let someone else take most of that risk and then buy a horse further along. YMMV

      Last edited by atlatl; Feb. 8, 2020, 05:52 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by atlatl View Post
        Interesting perspective.



        I hate to break it to you; but if you own a horse, you are "privileged" it's only a matter of degree.


        While I agree this is true when we're talking about world hunger and the like, this is a BS argument in this context.



        Yes, all horse owners are privileged. But that is the base of the context, and the audience you're speaking to. We're not looking globally here.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

          While I agree this is true when we're talking about world hunger and the like, this is a BS argument in this context.



          Yes, all horse owners are privileged. But that is the base of the context, and the audience you're speaking to. We're not looking globally here.
          So you’re ok with an essay that is basically, “others have more money than me so the USEF should change so I can get the preferential treatment”? Because that’s what at the base of the above, not some altruistic “make the world a better place.”

          I can see it and I’m a wild-eyed leftist.

          Comment


            #6
            I don’t know why it’s hard for equestrians to realize that no matter the sport, there are people who have access to better coaching, better equipment, better facilities, an opportunity to play or practice year round etc.

            I wonder how many YR’s choose to do something else, rather than keep going. I also think, if YR’s get that disillusioned about what it involves to become a pro and make it, they didn’t see the industry for what it is rather see it through the lens of their parents being able to support them to reach those goals.

            I know of two women (sisters) who made the YR team every year they were eligible. Their parents had the resources and connections to provide quality horses and instruction. Their parents also only would contribute 10k towards their horses. While 20k is a lot for many families, when these sisters needed to step up in horse flesh, they had to come up with the money to make up the price difference for that PSG horse or GP horse. So while people would see them owning extremely high five figure horses, and six figure horses, what they didn’t know was they started with OTTBs and worked up the levels selling their mounts on to afford the current horse.

            They are now successful pros who went to college, and and really are brilliant coaches. They helped me as teenagers with my first OTTB. They are talented women as riders and coaches.
            Don't try this at home.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by atlatl View Post

              So you’re ok with an essay that is basically, “others have more money than me so the USEF should change so I can get the preferential treatment”? Because that’s what at the base of the above, not some altruistic “make the world a better place.”

              I can see it and I’m a wild-eyed leftist.
              That's not what I said. I said that mentioning that *all* horse owners are privileged is not relevant here.

              Comment


                #8
                If we want to contrast the USA with say Germany as an extreme example.

                In Germany I understand you need to progress through a training and exam system to be certified as coach. So the coaching and training system has formal qualifications. None of this everybody plus a feral teen with an Instagram account hanging out a shingle as a trainer. And also there would be a more clear path to professional competency than just throwing money at horses.

                The horse breeding industry in Germany is considered an important industry and is regulated and supported with an eye to improving quality.

                The breed registries themselves are firm about raising quality in very specific ways, the exact opposite of say the QH world in the US.

                Also for whatever reason it sounds like beginner and intermediate lessons of excellent quality are freakishly cheap compared to North America.

                In other words the entire German system is apparently much more regulated, formalized, and focused on quality in much more specific and focussed on a range of sport horse disciplines than North America.

                North America operated much more as an entirely unregulated private sector with no regulatory oversight. I don't think most of us would be happy if a German level of oversight was imposed on Canada or the USA! But it's true that having a rigorous credential system and affordable quality lessons would provide a track to becoming a pro that would level the playing field to some extent.


                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                  That's not what I said. I said that mentioning that *all* horse owners are privileged is not relevant here.
                  Actually it is. If one has money for a horse and show at any level it’s disingenuous at best to cry money issues. I have a horse. I by no means cry about lack of money. It’s what I CHOOSE to spend my money on. Couple the amount of disposable income spent on keeping the horse and whining about not having as much to show as someone else? Yes I’ll think that person is ridiculous. It’s not like the costs are unknown.
                  Don't try this at home.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I agree with endlessclimb. Of course horse owners in the US are privileged in the global scheme of things, but this isn’t the topic being addressed by the OP. There’s a huge difference in opportunity between an ambitious, super-talented, extremely hard-working young person striving to succeed at a local barn with a $500 grade horse because that’s all her family can afford and the Jessica Springsteens, Lillie Keenans, Georgina Bloombergs, etc. of the horse world. While these women are jumper riders, the same applies to money versus lack thereof in the dressage world (and yes yes we get it, all horses owners are privileged).

                    And everyone gets the fact that there’s always someone with more money, better horses, etc. But in most other sports there is a strong attempt to level the playing field so that everyone uses the same equipment and has a similar chance to excel. Consider the latest controversy on the new Nike running shoes which may confer an advantage in races and hence be ruled unfair. For some reason, the concept of fairness is completely thrown out the window in the horse world and people heap praise on wealthy young riders whose parents purchase $$$$ horses giving them a massive advantage over most riders. As the OP points out, the USEF then directs all of their financial support to the “top” (i.e., already wealthy) young riders. Not surprisingly the “top” riders can’t train or bring along young horses since they always had the best ponies/horses handed to them, ready to win.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                      If we want to contrast the USA with say Germany as an extreme example.

                      In Germany I understand you need to progress through a training and exam system to be certified as coach. So the coaching and training system has formal qualifications. None of this everybody plus a feral teen with an Instagram account hanging out a shingle as a trainer. And also there would be a more clear path to professional competency than just throwing money at horses.

                      The horse breeding industry in Germany is considered an important industry and is regulated and supported with an eye to improving quality.

                      The breed registries themselves are firm about raising quality in very specific ways, the exact opposite of say the QH world in the US.

                      Also for whatever reason it sounds like beginner and intermediate lessons of excellent quality are freakishly cheap compared to North America.

                      In other words the entire German system is apparently much more regulated, formalized, and focused on quality in much more specific and focussed on a range of sport horse disciplines than North America.

                      North America operated much more as an entirely unregulated private sector with no regulatory oversight. I don't think most of us would be happy if a German level of oversight was imposed on Canada or the USA! But it's true that having a rigorous credential system and affordable quality lessons would provide a track to becoming a pro that would level the playing field to some extent.

                      I absolutely would love to see a more regulated system here in the U.S. Might stop all the horse hoarders and child molesters from owning horses and training kids. Or not.
                      “My horses are my friends, not my slaves” — Reiner Klimke

                      Comment


                        #12
                        OK I’m just going to say this: it’s hard to be a successful business owner period.

                        I own a small professional service business. I can’t even tell you the hours, the employee and client issues. The details are different but it’s the same thing: it’s hard. Really hard. The odds are pretty much against you. And you are only as good as you are in the moment. History means nothing because there is always someone new coming along to potentially take away your clients.

                        But what doesn’t help is whining and complaining about it. Especially complaining about your clients.

                        i read these articles and all I can think of is that I could write all the same things about my business. But I don’t because that isn’t going to help me be successful. What has made me successful is sucking it up, working harder and being better.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by angelssix View Post
                          I absolutely would love to see a more regulated system here in the U.S. Might stop all the horse hoarders and child molesters from owning horses and training kids. Or not.
                          There are horse hoarders and child molester in Europe too.

                          There’s a scandal coming out right now in France with two girls who were raped by their trainer...
                          ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                          Originally posted by LauraKY
                          I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                            That's not what I said. I said that mentioning that *all* horse owners are privileged is not relevant here.
                            Sorry, I believe that it is when the point of the post is that opportunities are going to people who are already privileged. The topic of privilege is the essence of the post.

                            I also find it interesting that this is the OP's "first" post and yet the writing style is very similar to a long-time CoTH poster, but that really is irrelevant.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tamsin View Post
                              I agree with endlessclimb. Of course horse owners in the US are privileged in the global scheme of things, but this isn’t the topic being addressed by the OP. There’s a huge difference in opportunity between an ambitious, super-talented, extremely hard-working young person striving to succeed at a local barn with a $500 grade horse because that’s all her family can afford and the Jessica Springsteens, Lillie Keenans, Georgina Bloombergs, etc. of the horse world. While these women are jumper riders, the same applies to money versus lack thereof in the dressage world (and yes yes we get it, all horses owners are privileged).

                              And everyone gets the fact that there’s always someone with more money, better horses, etc. But in most other sports there is a strong attempt to level the playing field so that everyone uses the same equipment and has a similar chance to excel. Consider the latest controversy on the new Nike running shoes which may confer an advantage in races and hence be ruled unfair.
                              Of course there's a difference, but it's not the difference between someone coming from a family of academics and being the first in the family to graduate college. And if you "get it" then why not call a spade a spade and say something like "people who are better mounted and have access to better training are more likely to be ahead of those with less when selected for even better training opportunities."

                              There's a huge difference between that "extremely hard-working young person striving to succeed at a local barn with a $500 grade horse because that’s all her family can afford" and the extremely hard-working young person striving to succeed at a minimum wage job to help put food on the table for her family. Sheesh!

                              For some reason, the concept of fairness is completely thrown out the window in the horse world and people heap praise on wealthy young riders whose parents purchase $$$$ horses giving them a massive advantage over most riders.
                              This is equestrian sport, not a footrace. What do you want; handicap dressage scores where you get charity points depending on your bank balance? I realize some are likely to bristle at the word "charity" but let's not pretend otherwise, it's giving something to the "poor" relatively speaking.

                              As the OP points out, the USEF then directs all of their financial support to the “top” (i.e., already wealthy) young riders. Not surprisingly the “top” riders can’t train or bring along young horses since they always had the best ponies/horses handed to them, ready to win.
                              Your last line is patently untrue and frankly pretty rude. Would you look any of the "top" riders in the eyes and say this? Perhaps you'll get the opportunity to sit on a schoolmaster at some point; it's a humbling experience.

                              My point in engaging in this thread is to wonder why people who claim to be in dressage for the training not the showing are so obsessed with the opportunities available to those who show well. If it's the journey you're interested in, then why feel compelled to insult those with more resources as being unworthy of investment by the organization responsible for funding and selecting an Olympic team?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                The US does not have a training program for riders. The USEF developed a pipeline for elite riders starting with Young Riders who have the means to buy trained FEI horses to compete and with the goal to become US international competitors. USDF developed a program to certify trainers, but is not a training program. Anyone can say they are a trainer with little experience and skill, and beginner riders do not know what they don't know. The certification program is a start, but not widespread, for instance there are no certified trainers in AZ. There are good trainers here, but they do not become certified due to the expense and time.

                                While I was in the military stationed in Germany, I observed a different system. Training in Germany starts with inexpensive group lessons, one must pass a test (dressage, jumping, and theory) before competing. One could become an assistant horse trainer as part of high school under the tutelage of a certified trainer who had gone through the same process. Almost every town had a riding school with a certified trainer and assistant trainer "beireiter". So with this system someone who does not have access to wealth can become a trainer. It also provides a greater pool of possible talent with good basic training than in the US. Of course, they have their elite riders who have children who have access to talented horses.

                                Just a few of my observations. I am sure there are those with different experience.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Tamsin View Post
                                  ...Not surprisingly the “top” riders can’t train or bring along young horses since they always had the best ponies/horses handed to them, ready to win.
                                  While it might be true for some, this is hardly the reality of most of the top riders. You just cannot ride at the top and then be unable to train horses up the levels.

                                  I don’t believe you’ve ever ride or train horses yourself to say such thing.

                                  Those who pretend to be BNTrainers but can’t train horses? They get weed out pretty easily.

                                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                                    None of this everybody plus a feral teen with an Instagram account hanging out a shingle as a trainer.
                                    OMG, can I use this?

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by atlatl View Post

                                      OMG, can I use this?
                                      Of course!

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by AZ TD View Post
                                        The US does not have a training program for riders. The USEF developed a pipeline for elite riders starting with Young Riders who have the means to buy trained FEI horses to compete and with the goal to become US international competitors. USDF developed a program to certify trainers, but is not a training program. Anyone can say they are a trainer with little experience and skill, and beginner riders do not know what they don't know. The certification program is a start, but not widespread, for instance there are no certified trainers in AZ. There are good trainers here, but they do not become certified due to the expense and time.

                                        While I was in the military stationed in Germany, I observed a different system. Training in Germany starts with inexpensive group lessons, one must pass a test (dressage, jumping, and theory) before competing. One could become an assistant horse trainer as part of high school under the tutelage of a certified trainer who had gone through the same process. Almost every town had a riding school with a certified trainer and assistant trainer "beireiter". So with this system someone who does not have access to wealth can become a trainer. It also provides a greater pool of possible talent with good basic training than in the US. Of course, they have their elite riders who have children who have access to talented horses.

                                        Just a few of my observations. I am sure there are those with different experience.
                                        I agree with you the system in Germany is more basic and probably socialistic 😀. Of course there are people who spend a lot of money on their horses and Trainer.. Lisa Müller the wife of one of our best soccer players trains with I.W. I am sure she spends some money, but there are really enough possibilities for anybody with dedication without the money. there are no stupid AA rules, so if you are like a teller in a bank ( a safe job but not a killer moneymaker) you can ride in a barn for a pro, work and also can give lessons if you want to and still you are not considered a professional... which you are not because you are a teller...
                                        Most shows are not hosted by professional facilities but through local riding clubs. Every club usually tries to host one or two per year... its supports the own riders and is also considered fun... Its not looked at as a profession to host a show...
                                        if you are a junior there are regional trainer which look for talented riders and horses and will invite these juniors to programs to develope them.. It’s either free or the parents have to pay a nominal fee like 3 Euro...
                                        Private lessons with a highly qualified trainer are between 20 and 40 Euro..
                                        if you enter a show you spend like 30 Euro for 2 tests.. No office fee, drug fee or Haul in fee. You can rent a stall sometimes but nobody requires it... You can earn some money if you are in the ribbons (20 to 120 Euro). And yes there are drug tests at shows, Probably more frequently then in the US..
                                        And yes being a trainer in Germany is probably harder and less profitable then in the US.. Most every German Trainer dreams about beeing a trainer in the US......
                                        https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                                        https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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