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I got chastised about how I've/the trainer has been working my young horse

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  • I got chastised about how I've/the trainer has been working my young horse

    I personally find this a bit funny. But I got chastised for how my young horse has been trained. Or rather accused of pushing too hard (without seeing us ride or do anything.)

    It's a Western trainer who spouts a lot of dressage fundamentals but honestly has a lot of holes in knowledge.

    I told him that with the trainer he was in training with (an eventer) my 4 year old is going w/t/c with an introduction to some leg yield. His typical schedule has been work 4 days a week with a 5 day being just grooming/a nice hand walk. His work was typically a 20 or 30 minute session, unless on a trail ride at the walk. The trainer mostly worked on confidence and getting him out and about.

    I recently moved so was asking the Western trainer for a bit of help because he starts a lot of horses. I will be working with a dressage trainer in the future. I told the Western trainer that I really have found this horse typically does well with a little bit of ground work/in hand for about 5/10 minutes and then get on to ride. Instead of lunging before a ride. My typical week is one lunge at the beginning of the week (no riding after) and the rest of the days undersaddle.

    He said it sounded like we working him way too hard (at 20/30 minutes, 4 days a week.) He suggested that what would be a better routine is to round pen him for 20 minutes and then ride after. He somehow believes this is less work?? He also believes somehow that 20 plus minutes in a smaller roundpen isn't hard on stifles or other joints. Hmmm?? For the record, I will roundpen or lunge occasionally. But not for 20 minutes. And I won't ride after.

    Also told me that feeding one lb of a complete grain would be much better than a ration balancer.

    I asked for the help, so I got it! Ha ha. I really don't agree about much, time to find the right dressage trainer!!
  • Original Poster

    #2
    And I know everyone has their opinions! I respect that. I know some people don't start horses until 5 or 6. This is a TB who was recently started. No racing.
    I've just never heard the logic that roundpen use multiple times a week for 20 minutes is healthier than a light, 20 minute ride!

    Comment


    • #3
      How would any of us keep our bulls***-detectors tuned if there weren't folks in the equestrian world offering opinions on everything? He's just keeping you sharp and testing your confidence. You passed.
      ​​​​

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, at least to know not to ask him for advice anymore!
        If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
        -meupatdoes

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          The best advice was I need to understand that a horse this young isn't going to be piaffeing this year! πŸ˜‚ Ha ha I was like I'm, yeah of course not. I was hoping to be competent at training level work at the end of the year and just trail ride a whole lot.

          Even my husband, a non horse person, was like yeah no $h#t he won't be piaffeing for years right??

          Comment


          • #6
            He sounds as though he is all hat, no horse.

            Your best response is "oh, right!"
            Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

            Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
              I personally find this a bit funny. But I got chastised for how my young horse has been trained. Or rather accused of pushing too hard (without seeing us ride or do anything.)

              It's a Western trainer who spouts a lot of dressage fundamentals but honestly has a lot of holes in knowledge.

              I told him that with the trainer he was in training with (an eventer) my 4 year old is going w/t/c with an introduction to some leg yield. His typical schedule has been work 4 days a week with a 5 day being just grooming/a nice hand walk. His work was typically a 20 or 30 minute session, unless on a trail ride at the walk. The trainer mostly worked on confidence and getting him out and about.

              I recently moved so was asking the Western trainer for a bit of help because he starts a lot of horses. I will be working with a dressage trainer in the future. I told the Western trainer that I really have found this horse typically does well with a little bit of ground work/in hand for about 5/10 minutes and then get on to ride. Instead of lunging before a ride. My typical week is one lunge at the beginning of the week (no riding after) and the rest of the days undersaddle.

              He said it sounded like we working him way too hard (at 20/30 minutes, 4 days a week.) He suggested that what would be a better routine is to round pen him for 20 minutes and then ride after. He somehow believes this is less work?? He also believes somehow that 20 plus minutes in a smaller roundpen isn't hard on stifles or other joints. Hmmm?? For the record, I will roundpen or lunge occasionally. But not for 20 minutes. And I won't ride after.

              Also told me that feeding one lb of a complete grain would be much better than a ration balancer.

              I asked for the help, so I got it! Ha ha. I really don't agree about much, time to find the right dressage trainer!!
              Now you know not to ask him for help or indeed say more than "nice day eh?" when you see him. A good lesson learned with no harm to your horse!

              ​​​​​

              Comment


              • #8
                Well at least he waved the red flags before he started working with your horse! So you could ease out of the situation and go on to find someone who knows what they are doing

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  He can be super nice and can have a good way with *some horses* but there is a big ego there. He will contradict himself almost just to say the opposite of you. Kind of condescending.

                  I wasn't planning on riding with him long term. Just thought a professional being there for first ride at the barn would be good.... And that was enough!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    By chance...does this guy wear a "flat" hat? No disrespect to followers of The Way, but I've seen more and more trying to be sort of "crossover" trainers, I guess thinking a bridle horse = dressage horse. While they share some similarities, they also have some very huge differences and the two are not equivalent.

                    If you think this guy is full of hot air, I definitely wouldn't ride with him at all, even to be just eyes on the ground - if you do, you may forever be defending yourself against not following his advice. And I wouldn't be surprised if he offers it unsolicited from now on since you opened that door.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Pfffft

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Note also that some trainers like to trash everything you are doing in an effort to get you to panic and come join their program.

                        Years ago I read about the technique of "negging" as a pickup line. The idea was that if a man was chatting up a confident attractive woman who is used to praise, he should say negative things to make her unsure and anxious.

                        It sounded like a terrible tactic to me but I have noticed people like my truck mechanic doing this just a little bit to keep me dependent on his judgement. I have also had low end female trainers pull this on me (when I was looking for lease horses) and because I already had a good idea where my skills gaps were, I didn't fall for it (or take them seriously).

                        I would give this dude a wide berth. You don't want him there for your first ride because he *will* want to contradict whatever you do.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I really do go with a open mind and incorporate some "natural horsemanship" in my routine. In fact, the trainer who started my horse did too. But was very reasonable about it. This horse does better with short work right now.
                          But the was beyond logic to me...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When someone suggests things like that, I say thanks and then ask for their phone number. Afterward, I go home and pull up vet articles, training articles, etc on the topic and send them by text. I especially like Science of Motion or university research papers, bc they usually can’t wrap their heads around the biomechanics or the biology.

                            They usually leave me alone after that. The ones who return with questions are worth keeping around, bc that shows a lack of ego and a willingness to learn in the best interest of the horse.
                            Banter whenever you want to banter....canter whenever you want to canter.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Heinz 57 had to lol because he sure does! But he claims his method is largely his own, besides time spent overseas learning.

                              But yes I've found that from a few of those. And I do find some of that ground work helpful but I just can't ever make sense of any of the "dressage" advice from them either.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Scribbler YES. I've found the same and also from other lower level trainers. Once upon a time I thought that's all a lowly ammy rider like me deserved. Until I woke up and noticed no clients were improving much or past a point. And the training became nearly manipulative just like you described.

                                Definitely what was going on. If I agreed too much even, like oh yes, I've used that feed program or I've done that with him, the trainer would talk over me and change the subject to another bit of advice. Some of it contradictory to what was said 5 minutes before!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Not a dressage rider, mostly western and I think his thoughts on training are hogwash! Why roundpen a horse that is riding nicely unless you just want to get some quick exercise in? No point at all. Carry on with your program.
                                  ~~Some days are a total waste of makeup.~~

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Round penning a horse is similar, but not the same, as lunging. To several people I have met lunging is a flat out gallop for 10 minutes to wear the horse down, he's probably seen some of that and no wonder he'd think it was too much.

                                    Many NH style trainers will roundpen a horse that rides nicely because they believe nice riding horses start on the ground and would rather feel a young horse out in the round pen and solve any issues before getting on and having a problem under saddle
                                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
                                      Heinz 57 had to lol because he sure does! But he claims his method is largely his own, besides time spent overseas learning.

                                      But yes I've found that from a few of those. And I do find some of that ground work helpful but I just can't ever make sense of any of the "dressage" advice from them either.
                                      Oh for sure, I definitely wasn't trying to bash the various NH factions. They have some great tools and I generally like the principles of horsemanship they teach - horses seem to be obedient and responsive but relaxed. I just find things start to disconnect in the way they want to develop a horse under saddle (for my preferred methodology, obviously YMMV!).

                                      Either way this guy sounds like a bad fit for you. It's not like you've been pushing your 4yo with 90 minutes of drilling 6 days a week...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                                        Round penning a horse is similar, but not the same, as lunging. To several people I have met lunging is a flat out gallop for 10 minutes to wear the horse down, he's probably seen some of that and no wonder he'd think it was too much.
                                        I currently know several who practice round penning as chasing the horse around at a gallop for 25 minutes until it is lathered with sweat and panting and has no energy left to do anything but "join up". Which is not so different from the bad longeing you describe.

                                        ​​​I'd definitely need to see with my own eyes that that's not what a particular trainer does before I'd let him put a horse of mine in a round pen, so I can see how longeing might strike someone as bad if all they know is longe-til-dead. But this guy sounds like someone with misapprehensions about dressage putting forth a desperate-seeming effort to show Luna he knows better. I don't blame her for noping away and finding a trainer she meshes better with.

                                        Comment

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