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new proposal to rule 275-07

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Miss Dior View Post
    But none are as out of line as her comments were.
    Oh, you'd be surprised. Several members of the DC and one on the BoD make Leona Helmsley look like Mary Sunshine.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by slc2 View Post

      I think I understand why you're all getting so nasty. This isn't a rule, this is a criticism of how you've chosen to do dressage and a criticism of your belief system and of your horse. THAT'S where all the snotty words come from.

      Ah, I got it, don't restrict training thru 4th, if we want to suck that's our business, but let the bb's continue to bitch endlessly, nastily and personally, about how awful the fei riders are. I think I get it now. if a person rides poorly at 2nd-4th level, that's their right and their privilege, it's a free country, why it's now according to this bb NOBLE to go to some show and get a low score(unless you're at ringside, then the rider IS horrible, and you can even post later about how horrible it is nd no one is classical anymore, yadda yadda yadda, and THAT thread will be noble too.....), because it's the person's dream to do that... but the fei riders don't have that right because....let me see...because.....what's so magical about crossing the line from 4th to psg...let me see....
      Do you ever listen to yourself slc or do you just start typing and hit send without knowing what came out??? Because I don't know who died and made you the all-knowing goddess of what we should think.

      This whole thing has been ramrodded down people's throats too quickly for some to stomach, so I don't see what's wrong with not standing there and taking it. We do after all have the right to a dissenting opinion.

      I do however find it awfully hard to swallow that someone who does not compete as yourself has the nerve to tell anyone else they are not allowed to voice an opinion on a subject that directly impacts ones ability to show up the levels!!!

      When FEI level becomes involved, I'll concede that there might be a different set of standards since that's more focused towards olympic level riding but honestly, I could care less if someone goes and flops around their cow pony at grand prix....as long as it's not hurting anyone or the horse. I'm secure in my riding abilities, and I don't need the USEF to start making new rules to tell me what the judges should already be able to do.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it"

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
        no, that's not the worst insult, but there are many, here and on other bb's and lists. canticle's i found nasty.
        Oh please. Do you even know what the saying means?
        I think I understand why you're all getting so nasty. This isn't a rule, this is a criticism of how you've chosen to do dressage and a criticism of your belief system and of your horse. THAT'S where all the snotty words come from.

        Ah, I got it, don't restrict training thru 4th, if we want to suck that's our business, but let the bb's continue to bitch endlessly, nastily and personally, about how awful the fei riders are. I think I get it now. if a person rides poorly at 2nd-4th level, that's their right and their privilege, it's a free country, why it's now according to this bb NOBLE to go to some show and get a low score(unless you're at ringside, then the rider IS horrible, and you can even post later about how horrible it is nd no one is classical anymore, yadda yadda yadda, and THAT thread will be noble too.....), because it's the person's dream to do that... but the fei riders don't have that right because....let me see...because.....what's so magical about crossing the line from 4th to psg...let me see....
        Enough with the psychobabble already. Not all of us have an inferiority complex which we need to project onto others. I am opposed to this rule because there is no identifiable reason for it. It will accomplish nothing except to make Dressage even more of a headache. I ride for pleasure, and I'd just as soon stay at home or choose another (more welcoming) discipline than deal with the bureaucracy this would create.

        And by the way, the insults are coming from the USEF/USDF higher-ups who are trying to foist this rule upon us peons. We are staying remarkably civil, all things considered.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by flshgordon View Post
          When FEI level becomes involved, I'll concede that there might be a different set of standards since that's more focused towards olympic level riding but honestly, I could care less if someone goes and flops around their cow pony at grand prix....as long as it's not hurting anyone or the horse. I'm secure in my riding abilities, and I don't need the USEF to start making new rules to tell me what the judges should already be able to do.
          The irony is that the rule is aimed squarely at amateurs, but amateurs are the least of the discipline's problems. Just look at the exemptions:

          Riders in the FEI young horse tests are exempt. Young riders competing in the NAJYRC are exempt. Foreign riders are exempt. Long-listed riders are exempt. Medal winners are exempt. Judges are exempt. Certified instructors are exempt.

          It's so corrupt I don't know what to say anymore. slc, THAT'S what I meant when I said "the fish rots from the head down!"

          The governing body should be focusing precisely on the groups which they were so kind as to exempt or grandfather in. Instead they are giving the amateurs a hard time, the very people who aren't hurting anyone.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by canticle View Post
            Instead they are giving the amateurs a hard time, the very people who aren't hurting anyone.
            Oh, but apparently it's too difficult for some of the DC members who also judge to sit through a few minutes of a shitty ride. You know, the shitty ride they are being paid to judge.

            Comment


            • #26
              And after they sit through the shitty ride, they give the rider a collective of "5" and then go and complain about what terrible rides they saw.
              Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

              Comment


              • #27
                this whole thing has become ridiculous, now it's about foy's remark about cow ponies, and nothing else and this remark has caused alot of very childish reactions where people totally lose focus on the issue - that's what makes 'the membership' so ineffective, NOT that there's some friggin' conspiracy.

                i did not start out a great fan of qualifiers, but the new plan sounds better. for me the worry is the financial aspect.

                i must say that after hearing the arguments against it presented here, i am very sure i know why there is a 'disconnect' between the committees and some complainers.

                i am excluding rebecca from that, as she has presented a very good case, and done so politely and with dignity and has discussed it without the accusations and snotty words others have used - how they ever expect anyone to listen to them when they write that way is totally beyond me.

                she (there was another good letter from another lady too) has done a good job - no, you others have not. yes, a bulletin board IS a public place, and it's a small world and this is not the half of it. collectively, the bb's and lists have been incredibly snotty and childish.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  I personally would never have posted anything if it weren't for Rebecca Yount, I was trying to be apart of something I care about and unfortunatley spelled Brown-Foy's name wrong. I feel somewhat responsible for starting the "slight" curve in the road.

                  But we must remember this has nothing to do with any one person, but a process that wasn't as open as it should have been and about a rule proposal that we all feel very passionately about no mater which side we take.

                  This is ultimately about the horse, and how we show this wonderful creature. We all know we will continue riding, but showing and paying money to do so might be different.

                  Let's all keep our head up, breath deeply and get a grip.
                  Racheal

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Piaffegirl, don't feel bad.

                    You made an honest mistake and I am sure you will be more careful now.

                    Everyone is doing the best they can with this difficult issue. We just shouldn't be bickering with each other.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by canticle View Post
                      Riders in the FEI young horse tests are exempt. Young riders competing in the NAJYRC are exempt. Foreign riders are exempt. Long-listed riders are exempt. Medal winners are exempt. Judges are exempt. Certified instructors are exempt.
                      Actually, I think the Young Riders are exempt to a point because they have to qualify to compete at NAJYRC, and the qualification "points" are similar to the proposed scheme. Foreign riders need letters from their governing body to prove what level they show at, and anyone long-listed is already riding GP and doing well. Medal winners are exempt at the level they won their medal at plus one (no big gain for them there). The grandfathering level for judges is inflated, IMO, but they are not totally (only mostly ) exempt.

                      J.
                      Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        As for me, I couldn't care less about Janet Brown-Foy's comments about cow ponies. I am concerned about a rule that appears completely unworkable, elitist and expensive, when all the judges have to do is score the rider as he/she deserves instead of being afraid/unwilling to give a rider score below a 5.
                        Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I am still waiting for anyone to explain WHY demanding that lower-level riders meet a standard in order to show above a certain level at local and regional shows...is somehow going to make the sport of dressage in this country become like the top-end of dressage in Germany and Holland.

                          Sure the score standard exists in those two countries.

                          But the standard is hardly the reason they continue to beat us.

                          They beat us because dressage as horse sport is part of the culture and has been for a long time.

                          They beat us because the sport has a fan base big enough that DRESSAGE is regularly on television!
                          They beat us because DRESSAGE has sponsors!
                          They beat us because they have a standardized process and a system for teaching that process.

                          They beat us in dressage for the same reason that the U.S. beats just about everyone else in football and baseball and basketball.

                          There is nothing wrong with a proposal to have standards.

                          What is wrong is that (to borrow a fitting cliche) the DC is putting the cart before the horse: they are picking one element out of several ,and refusing to accept that OTHER elements must be established first.

                          Because it will be difficult to attract sponsors.
                          Because it will be difficult to create a standardized teaching process when we no longer even really have a USET headquarters, as Gladstone is basically a golf course and Kentucky is basically...an edifice.
                          So the DC seems to have fastened on an element they can do something about: they can pass an edict.

                          The problem is--the edict does not make sense .Dressage is too marginal a sport to want to enforce a proposal that may discsourage possible new members.

                          I watched bull riding on regular TV the other day.
                          OK, so it is 8 seconds and a space alien, in the space of maybe 3 rides, could figure out how and why someone wins.
                          And the cowboys all say shucks, wear tight jeans and stetsons and are so damn cool it makes my teeth hurt!

                          But you know what? If dressage were marketed properly, people would learn that our riders are also athletes; that the horses are waaay more interesting than the bulls (hey! those bulls have fan clubs and posters and NAME RECOGNITION). That the sport has the same allure as gymnastics and pairs figure skating, just to pick two obvious comparisons.

                          anyway...just thinking aloud.
                          one oak, lots of canyons

                          http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Canyonoak
                            www.moranequinephoto.com
                            "If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom."
                            Byron

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Canyonoak, you go girl.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by canyonoak View Post
                                I am still waiting for anyone to explain WHY demanding that lower-level riders meet a standard in order to show above a certain level at local and regional shows...is somehow going to make the sport of dressage in this country become like the top-end of dressage in Germany and Holland.

                                Sure the score standard exists in those two countries.
                                But the standard is hardly the reason they continue to beat us.

                                -They beat us because dressage as horse sport is part of the culture and has been for a long time.
                                -They beat us because the sport has a fan base big enough that DRESSAGE is regularly on television!
                                -They beat us because DRESSAGE has sponsors!
                                -They beat us because they have a standardized process and a system for teaching that process.

                                What is wrong is that (to borrow a fitting cliche) the DC is putting the cart before the horse: they are picking one element out of several ,and refusing to accept that OTHER elements must be established first.
                                Exactly CanyonOak!

                                Reminds me of the exchange between Joan Cuzak and Melanie Griffith in the movie "Working Girl":

                                "Sometimes at home I sing and dance around in my underwear...doesn't make me Madonna."

                                Passing an Open-Ended Rule Proposal for 3rd/4th/PSG Performance Standards won't make US Dressage more competitive with Germany and Netherlands.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I'm not sure if it's late enough they won't consider the letter but regardless I'm sending mine today. I applaud the committee for identifying an issue they feel warrants attention - the welfare of horses and how the selection of an appropriate showing level impacts the horse's wellbeing.

                                  I don't believe the proposed rule change will achieve either the missions of the USEF (which is what rules are supposed to do) nor meet its own objectives.

                                  Some of my reasons are what I believe are would be some unintended consequences of the rule change. For example, I believe there will be a significant rise in schooling shows which don't necessarily regulate the levels people compete at let alone the equipment, abuse, medications etc.

                                  I offered my thoughts as to why I don't think the rule is a good idea and offered some alternatives that I think might better achieve the objectives. I think their issue - making sure horses are shown at the appropriate level - isn't a bad one. I believe they simply overlooked a USEF rule-writing requirement in the process - "Develop as may possible solutions as you can. Ask others for their input" and went straight to what everyone (or every other country as the case may be) else has done. Which isn’t a great reason for doing anything except exercising more. 

                                  Some of the alternatives I submitted are based on making things more transparent and making it tougher to call yourself a professional. For example: 1) making tests publicly viewable (not just the total scores - movement by movement scores and comments) which would hold both rider and judges more accountable a little public scrutiny could be a good thing 2) requiring qualification for anyone that wants to show open -I think if we tighten requirements for those that want to call themselves professionals we will eliminate many that abuse the system or encourage/enable their students to do so (most true professionals work really, really hard to get their students to show the correct level since it really does reflect on them)

                                  I may not have it perfect but I'm willing to my ideas out there for others to improve and build on.

                                  Rebecca - kudos to you for putting yourself out there and encouraging the rest of us.

                                  Who else has constructive suggestions on what would work in lieu of the proposed standards?

                                  Let's get behind the intent - improving the welfare of our horses and helping ensure competitors to show at the right level - and find ways to achieve it!

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by happyrider View Post
                                    Who else has constructive suggestions on what would work in lieu of the proposed standards?

                                    In my letter to the USEF DC and the USEF BoD I explained the reasons I disagreed with an (Open-Ended) Rule Proposal for Performance Standards. (a rule proposal with qualifications to be determined "later")

                                    But I added (what I thought) were constructive alternative solutions to the USEF DC's expressed problem of raising the standard of riding and protecting horses from "abuse"/"stress":

                                    -Judges better utilize the existing Scoring System and TD's/Judges better utilize Yellow Cards when faced with "Fairly Bad" or "Abusive" riding.

                                    -$$$ allotted to the Proposed Performance Standard monitoring is used to off set the cost of training clinics at the regional level for PM's/riders who have achieved a yearly score average of X%.

                                    However, the responses I received indicated (nicely and some not so nicely)
                                    that "I did not understand".

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by slc2 View Post

                                      i did not start out a great fan of qualifiers, but the new plan sounds better. for me the worry is the financial aspect.

                                      Hmmm are you finally planning on competing?

                                      Comment

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