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Judge goes off course

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  • Judge goes off course

    In my many years of showing, this hasn't happened until this season - and it's happened twice! I'm curious if this has happened to others and how they've handled it. I rode the leg yield L to M, to have the judge ring the bell and tell me it's I to M (first, 2). I knew it was L to M, but can you argue the judge and stick you your guns? Or do you ride it as they think it's supposed to be and take the score that comes your way?

  • #2
    What did the score sheet have listed as the movement listed? If it happened the second time, I would be inclined to ask to confirm with the score sheet directives after the bell is rang.

    Comment


    • #3
      The test is right in front of them - or at least on the score sheet in front of the scribe. So should be easy to check in the moment. I would politely ask if they are sure - if they insisted it was I to M, I would not argue during the test but I would speak to the steward, and possibly fill out one of the evaluation forms for licensed officials (Can be found by searching "Members Confidential Evaluation of Judges, Stewards, Technical Delegates and Course Designers" on the USEF site.)
      **********
      We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
      -PaulaEdwina

      Comment


      • #4
        IIRC, nothing happens at "I" in First 1 or First 2. And there is more than a little difference between L and I (24 meters!)

        That movement is a coefficient, too:

        FIRST LEVEL TEST 2
        4. L-M Leg yield right. Regularity and quality of trot; consistent tempo; alignment; balance and flow. Coefficient 2.

        It would be interesting to know if other competitors in the class were being dinged for the same thing. And yes, I would talk to the Technical Delegate about it.

        Perhaps the judge and scribe need glasses.

        Comment


        • #5
          Is it possible that you mean she wanted you to start from D, and not I? I to M would mean proceeding at trot very far down centerline and then performing an extremely short and steep leg yield, from I to M is only about 14 meters.

          D to M would be a longer and more shallow LY than the test asks for. But before the last rewrite of the tests, LY did start from D so that may have confused her. It did cause some confusion just recently at the L program I attended, during the demo rides.

          Not that there's any excuse, the judge should know the test. I'm just not able to picture wanting it from I to M and asking a rider to perform something that steep and short.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
            ..

            Perhaps the judge and scribe need glasses.
            It's not the scribe's job to correct the judge.

            I scribed this test a couple of weeks ago and the judge commented on how it's such a long line that there's little crossing of the legs. So while that judge knew the test, they missed things like a rider not saluting at either end of the test.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Thanks, all! Silverbridge - I could literally see my horse being like - "you want me to WHAT?" We pulled it off - it wasn't a nice leg yield, but we got from I to M

              This was just a schooling show, but the first time it happened, it was at a rated show. That time, the judge waved me down to the judge's stand and apologized that I was correct and that she scored me on the first time I did the movement.

              This time, the judge rang the bell midway through the second leg yield (L to H - and you bet I started at L) and said that I was right the first time. So, I didn't get error scores on either, but still very distracting. When they were explaining it to me, as they thought it should be done, they clearly said that it starts between R and S and goes to M, so I think they were mixing up where L and I are in the arena. This was a schooling show, with one arena, and it was later in the day, and I'm not sure if I was the first first-2 rider.

              It's good to know for future rated shows that it's a case to chat with the Steward and that those evaluation forms exist - I didn't know that!

              Comment


              • #8
                I had a judge ring me off course in a 2nd level test once when I wasn't. I politely asked where I had gone off course, and she looked at the test and realized that I had been on course and she had rung the bell in error. Thankfully.

                If the judge isn't willing to check the test sheet with a polite request for clarification on the movement, then I'd do my best to comply with judge's instruction and go straight to the steward after the final salute. I can't imagine a judge actually seeing an I-M LY there and still not realizing that that geometry is not what the test asks for...

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've had it happen at rated shows a few times. In one case, it was an older S judge, and I'm afraid maybe she fell asleep during my ride?!!?!?! I've also SCRIBED in that situation, older judge, nodded off during the ride. I complained to TD and show management when it happened to me, because the judge slaughtered me for a NICE ride, but was told that was just the way it is - I had no proof I was not off course (and BTW, even if I DID have proof, video can not be used to refute a judge's score). So WTF.

                  Also had a judge who kept ringing me off course because she was messing with the freaking BELL in the booth - every time she'd ring the bell, I'd stop and ask where she wanted me to go - and she would mark me off course for stopping - although she had clearly rung the bell. This happened TWICE in my test. Again, WTF. Scribe even told show management what had happened, but they couldn't do anything about it. This was another older S judge.

                  Had a friend rang off course because her halt was a few meters early - instead of just marking her down a point or two for the halt? It was a lovely, balanced, perfectly square halt. Maybe give it an 8 instead of a 9? Again, S judge, rated show.

                  So, it does happen. Judges are human, they do make mistakes. Luckily, most judges do a good job - I've shown a lot over the years, and scribed a lot over the years, and find these are rare and isolated incidences. I'm going to admit - as an L who judges a lot of schooling shows, I rang someone off course once because I got L and R mixed up! It happens. Luckily, I realized my error, apologized to her, and we moved on with the test.

                  Atlatl is correct - the scribe should not correct the judge - unless asked! The scribe's job is to record the scores and comments, and not interject unless specifically asked by the judge.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've never had that one before. I have seen the judge have the wrong test sheet and ring the bell for off course. Once for me (wrong test sheet entirely in a TOC class) and for a friend (wrong edition of the right test). Both judges were very sorry and got things sorted out quickly.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My 2nd favorite off course story: I was riding the same test as a BNT trainer and judge at a local rated show right after that rider. I went off course at exactly the same place she did!

                      I've scribed when judges erroneously ring the bell; each and every time they apologized profusely.

                      I was doing sitting hours with an I judge when the TD approached with a test from the previous day where the rider had a question about the scoring. The judge looked at it, turned to the scribe and said "remember I told you there was a mix up here", then turned to me and asked "When could I have fixed this" to which I answered, "before the end of the show yesterday." The message back to the rider was along the lines of "I'm sorry, you are correct. If this happens again, please reach out to the judge before the show day is over so it can be fixed."

                      Another bell-ringing story: I was scribing at regional championships at E when a rider looked confused hearing the bell from the adjacent ring. The judge at E quickly told her "that's not for you." Not only nice, but could be interpreted as "outside assistance" which is against the rules. Totally cool judge!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by atlatl View Post
                        It's not the scribe's job to correct the judge.
                        Yes, I know that.

                        OTOH, a few years ago I overheard a well-known S judge comment to a friend who was scribing something along the lines of, "If you see something amiss or have a concern, don't interrupt a test in progress, but be sure to mention it to me after the test is finished."

                        Hence my comment about the scribe not picking up on the error. The scribe either knew the judge was wrong, or she didn't. If she didn't know, than yes, perhaps she also needs glasses. If she *did* know, and it was happening to one competitor after another and there was no procedure to allow her to mention it or report it--than that is a problem with the system. (One of many problems, as we all know. LOL.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DownYonder View Post

                          Yes, I know that.

                          OTOH, a few years ago I overheard a well-known S judge comment to a friend who was scribing something along the lines of, "If you see something amiss or have a concern, don't interrupt a test in progress, but be sure to mention it to me after the test is finished."

                          Hence my comment about the scribe not picking up on the error. The scribe either knew the judge was wrong, or she didn't. If she didn't know, than yes, perhaps she also needs glasses. If she *did* know, and it was happening to one competitor after another and there was no procedure to allow her to mention it or report it--than that is a problem with the system. (One of many problems, as we all know. LOL.)
                          Then shame on that judge.

                          There is a procedure to allow anyone, scribe or otherwise to report such a situation as you describe; the evaluation forms are available for all.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                            Hence my comment about the scribe not picking up on the error. The scribe either knew the judge was wrong, or she didn't. If she didn't know, than yes, perhaps she also needs glasses.
                            The scribe should be looking at the test sheet and either writing or preparing to write, not watching the test to see whether the rider is or isn't off course.

                            "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As someone who has scribed, this isn't something I would notice unless I knew the test fairly well, or unless something unusual happened (a number of people having the same error.) I typically just look where I'm writing, with maybe a few quick glances up to watch the rider if there's time in between comments.

                              I've had several judges with the wrong test, and once or twice had them read a movement wrong (mostly judges unfamiliar with the eventing tests at schooling CTs/ HTs.) They were always very nice and apologetic, though.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I was at a show with my instructor and she had the judge ring the bell on her for going off-course. The judge didn't immediately recognize the error so when my instructor approached the judge's box (truly confused, wondering if she had in fact gone off course) she inquired to the judge if it was movement 1 to movement 2, to movement 3...at which point, the judge looked at the test, realized the error, and directed her to resume the test at the interrupted movement & proceed. I was videoing the test at the time (and had been recording her rides all season) so I knew the test relatively well and was baffled by it all - I didn't understand the entire exchange until after the ride when she asked me to walk back down to the barns with her to discuss (had I seen anything as an observer that indicated she may have been going off course/etc).

                                It was not the nicest experience in the world, and a shame too - the test itself was shaping up to be a nice one, but that definitely distracted by horse and rider.

                                I have to say, based on my experiences with the same judge, I do attempt to avoid shows where she is at. While I have not had her ring me off course when I was correct, I find the degree of attention to the test to be somewhat lacking. Very disheartening.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                                  The scribe should be looking at the test sheet and either writing or preparing to write, not watching the test to see whether the rider is or isn't off course.
                                  While that is of course true, a good scribe will recognize when a comment is not quite right for the box she is writing in.... either someone is off course, or the judge and scribe got off track. Maybe the judge left out a comment, or the scribe missed it, or the judge changed from "number-comment" to "comment-number"..... Additionally, there are some movements when we can look up briefly..... depending on how wordy the judge is!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                                    The scribe should be looking at the test sheet and either writing or preparing to write, not watching the test to see whether the rider is or isn't off course.
                                    Yes, of course. The scribe is looking at the test sheet--which states L-M. She hears judge ring the bell and tell the rider "I-M." So she either knows the judge is wrong or she thinks the "L" on the test sheet is an "I."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                      ...or she thinks the "L" on the test sheet is an "I."
                                      I which case, yes, she needs glasses.

                                      "She is not fragile like a flower. She is fragile like a bomb."

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post

                                        Yes, of course. The scribe is looking at the test sheet--which states L-M. She hears judge ring the bell and tell the rider "I-M." So she either knows the judge is wrong or she thinks the "L" on the test sheet is an "I."
                                        Or, since she is busy remembering the last comment and writing while finding her red pen to write "error" that she does not look at the OTHER columns - on the OTHER (far left) side of the page - where the directions for the movement are written. I assure you a scribe has enough to do that she does not have time to memorize all the tests or looking to see that the judge said a wrong letter.

                                        It is RIDICULOUS to put ANY PART of this on the scribe. We WRITE. Period. No scribe I know would speak up and correct a judge! (Now I might slide the test sheet towards her with my finger on the directions...... )

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