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Young horses & their frame

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

    Some horses are better conformed to do GP at ten than others, and there's not much the rider can do about that.
    Yup.

    A bad rider can spoil any horse no matter how talented.

    The best rider in the world however can't make a real GP horse out of a horse with no talent.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

      Some horses are better conformed to do GP at ten than others, and there's not much the rider can do about that.
      Maybe, still there are riders who produce GP horses all the time and some riders never make it....

      https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
      https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Manni01 View Post

        Maybe, still there are riders who produce GP horses all the time and some riders never make it....
        Don’t conflate the horse who can do GP with the one who can do GP well. Many horses can make it to GP, more than I think people are willing to give credit for. But the horse that is capable of succeeding in competition at that level by definition will have certain physical characteristics that make the work easier. If you need a more black and white example, Shetland ponies have finished the Tevis Cup, but there is no breed of horse better for endurance than an Arabian.

        Perhaps then the people who are consistently bringing along top horses, in addition to being gifted with at least a modicum of talent, are also privileged to have a steady stream of essentially perfect animals, secure finances, the best care, and time. The equine world at large is quite good at squandering its human capital after all.

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        • #44
          Charlotte DuJardin herself could not make my otherwise wonderful Paint Mare into a halfway competitive GP horse and she would be smart enough to not even try.

          On the other hand yes I've watched crappy riders and trainers squander decent horses, break them down at training level, horses that could go at least up to PSG based on raw talent.

          Riders who repeatedly get to GP have in addition byo skills, an eye for a horse.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
            Charlotte DuJardin herself could not make my otherwise wonderful Paint Mare into a halfway competitive GP horse and she would be smart enough to not even try.

            On the other hand yes I've watched crappy riders and trainers squander decent horses, break them down at training level, horses that could go at least up to PSG based on raw talent.

            Riders who repeatedly get to GP have in addition byo skills, an eye for a horse.
            I’m sorry, were you trying to start a new train of thought right there? Or were you just vagueposting in my general direction?

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Manni01 View Post

              Maybe, still there are riders who produce GP horses all the time and some riders never make it....
              A quality rider/trainer does not produce GP horses all the time. They know the level that the horse can comfortably do. Of course, it can depend on the vet/farrier bills to make a GP horse comfortable, and the more you have, the slightly further your horse can go. Even Isabell Werth doesn't make GP horses from all of her stellar prospects.
              Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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              • #47
                Originally posted by J-Lu View Post

                A quality rider/trainer does not produce GP horses all the time. They know the level that the horse can comfortably do. Of course, it can depend on the vet/farrier bills to make a GP horse comfortable, and the more you have, the slightly further your horse can go. Even Isabell Werth doesn't make GP horses from all of her stellar prospects.
                Agreed with this - there are many, many horses that can be trained to Third Level but it drops off considerably at the GP level. Beyond even athleticism, the majority of horses even bred to do dressage probably don't have everything it takes to accept the training needed to compete GP. That's how I always understood it anyway.
                Mr. Sandman
                sand me a man
                make him so sandy
                the sandiest man

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by the sandiest shoes View Post

                  Agreed with this - there are many, many horses that can be trained to Third Level but it drops off considerably at the GP level. Beyond even athleticism, the majority of horses even bred to do dressage probably don't have everything it takes to accept the training needed to compete GP. That's how I always understood it anyway.
                  Heck yes. Many, many horses can't do one and two tempis because they don't have the balance to react to rider cues or physically do a line of tempis, and they can't do full pirouettes because they don't have the balance and strength to lift the front end while sitting behind due to build or otherwise. I believe that every horse can do second level but peak at their individual physical/mental level above that. I've known lots of horses who did I2,GP for a season or two as 10-ish year olds and that was it for them due to injury. I think riders like Isabell Werth are great because they can be "in and out" with the difficulty for a young horse and can school many of her young horses in a GP test rather than have drilled everything. It's all fresh and she doesn't care if they make mistakes. She rides well enough to deal with the mistakes as they happen. She's sometimes criticized for "pushing" her younger horses but if you watch her ride, you see she's schooling these horses in the GP. She doesn't ride at that level with those horses otherwise.
                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by J-Lu View Post

                    A quality rider/trainer does not produce GP horses all the time. They know the level that the horse can comfortably do. Of course, it can depend on the vet/farrier bills to make a GP horse comfortable, and the more you have, the slightly further your horse can go. Even Isabell Werth doesn't make GP horses from all of her stellar prospects.
                    Ok I am sure you know what you are talking about... and I am also not sure how you define a GP horse. Just because you don’t see IW in an international competition with a horse doesn’t mean it’s not doing local GP with her employees...
                    https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                    https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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                    • #50
                      I think that:
                      1. some horses are born sat on their hocks, forehand lifted and back swinging and some are not
                      2. the more you train to upper levels the easier it is to make quick but gentle progress on your youngster
                      3. a genuine horse makes for quick progress

                      so if you are a pro on a talented and genuine horse OF COURSE what you achieve is not realistic for an ammy on her 4yo downhill cross breed thats a bit nappy and cpnfused by her fuzzy aids!!!

                      i dont think YH classes are the work of the devil if you have at least 2 of the 3 ingredients either.

                      FWIW ive competed to inter 1 and schooled 3 horses to GP. this is a 4yo pony stallion who was started at 3yo, has the easiest mind EVER and although rather croup high works naturally in good balance.
                      he is working the UK equivalent of second, so he does LY, SI, walk piris, mediums, walk to canter, canter to walk.

                      he mainly hacks......but he is very clever and very easy and i know how to not waste miles on his legs. we get a lot done in 1/2 30min sessions a week!

                      although not always 100% IFV you can see he reaches for the hand, and the contact is even and elastic. I am MORE than happy with this way of going.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by DressageChic2 View Post
                        I think that:
                        1. some horses are born sat on their hocks, forehand lifted and back swinging and some are not
                        2. the more you train to upper levels the easier it is to make quick but gentle progress on your youngster
                        3. a genuine horse makes for quick progress

                        so if you are a pro on a talented and genuine horse OF COURSE what you achieve is not realistic for an ammy on her 4yo downhill cross breed thats a bit nappy and cpnfused by her fuzzy aids!!!

                        i dont think YH classes are the work of the devil if you have at least 2 of the 3 ingredients either.

                        FWIW ive competed to inter 1 and schooled 3 horses to GP. this is a 4yo pony stallion who was started at 3yo, has the easiest mind EVER and although rather croup high works naturally in good balance.
                        he is working the UK equivalent of second, so he does LY, SI, walk piris, mediums, walk to canter, canter to walk.

                        he mainly hacks......but he is very clever and very easy and i know how to not waste miles on his legs. we get a lot done in 1/2 30min sessions a week!

                        although not always 100% IFV you can see he reaches for the hand, and the contact is even and elastic. I am MORE than happy with this way of going.
                        Mostly I agree with your 3 points and the rest of your post. The only thing which I would not say in the same way is that some horses are born to sit on their hocks.. I would prefer to say that some horses are faster learners then others. I do not think that there are horses which do it naturally...


                        https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                        https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Manni01 View Post

                          Mostly I agree with your 3 points and the rest of your post. The only thing which I would not say in the same way is that some horses are born to sit on their hocks.. I would prefer to say that some horses are faster learners then others. I do not think that there are horses which do it naturally...

                          But almost every horse naturally has the capacity to sit on their hocks when not being influenced by a rider. That’s literally the point of dressage. To condition a horse to move as freely under saddle as they can at liberty. And I’m stunned that you don’t believe that sitting ability in some breeds wasn’t deliberately selected for. How can you look at an Iberian or Iberian cross, especially one of the type still used for bullfighting and working cattle, and think “No, no horse was ever born with a precocious ability to take weight on their hind end.” Heck, there was an example upthread of an Andalusian’s temper tantrum of perfect canter pirouettes. Did you miss that post?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I agree that some horses are designed more to push, and some to sit. I know CH and CD also mention this in their symposiums. Horses are usually more naturally talented to either sit or push, rarely both. So identifying which is their weakness and strength can really help in their training.
                            Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

                              But almost every horse naturally has the capacity to sit on their hocks when not being influenced by a rider. That’s literally the point of dressage. To condition a horse to move as freely under saddle as they can at liberty. And I’m stunned that you don’t believe that sitting ability in some breeds wasn’t deliberately selected for. How can you look at an Iberian or Iberian cross, especially one of the type still used for bullfighting and working cattle, and think “No, no horse was ever born with a precocious ability to take weight on their hind end.” Heck, there was an example upthread of an Andalusian’s temper tantrum of perfect canter pirouettes. Did you miss that post?
                              Not sure what to answer???
                              https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                              https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

                                But almost every horse naturally has the capacity to sit on their hocks when not being influenced by a rider. That’s literally the point of dressage. To condition a horse to move as freely under saddle as they can at liberty. And I’m stunned that you don’t believe that sitting ability in some breeds wasn’t deliberately selected for. How can you look at an Iberian or Iberian cross, especially one of the type still used for bullfighting and working cattle, and think “No, no horse was ever born with a precocious ability to take weight on their hind end.” Heck, there was an example upthread of an Andalusian’s temper tantrum of perfect canter pirouettes. Did you miss that post?
                                My older mare was born with piaffe and tempi changes. She is not an international quality mover, but I was looking for my first dressage baby- and picked wisely with one who easily does the supposedly harder GP movements.
                                She very clearly has her strength there, and weakness in the driving power movements.

                                My younger mare is the opposite. While she has the best temperament of any warmblood I have met, she will be more challenging in many ways because she tends to want to overpower her sitting, even though she does show quite the capacity to sit as well.
                                If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                -meupatdoes

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                                • #56
                                  People have been breeding horses for the different disciplines : their conformation makes their physical abilities.
                                  Some are meant to run fast, some to pull carts, some to do dressage.

                                  Breeding for work ethic (fast learning horses) can also be done.
                                  Like western horses who are usually selected carefully for their quiet disposition and trainability.

                                  Having (or not) the capacity of sitting has nothing to do with the capacity to learn the work.

                                  Like me with running. I can run fast and I have a good cardio but no matter how eager I am to learn and train,
                                  I physically doesn’t have what it takes to be the next Usain Bolt. (Even if I would stuff myself with all the enhancing drugs available on the market)

                                  Like a downhill horse doesn’t have a learning disability. It’s a conformational one.

                                  You just cannot mix a physical and a psychological aspect.

                                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                                  HORSING mobile training app

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                                    People have been breeding horses for the different disciplines : their conformation makes their physical abilities.
                                    Some are meant to run fast, some to pull carts, some to do dressage.

                                    Breeding for work ethic (fast learning horses) can also be done.
                                    Like western horses who are usually selected carefully for their quiet disposition and trainability.

                                    Having (or not) the capacity of sitting has nothing to do with the capacity to learn the work.

                                    Like me with running. I can run fast and I have a good cardio but no matter how eager I am to learn and train,
                                    I physically doesn’t have what it takes to be the next Usain Bolt. (Even if I would stuff myself with all the enhancing drugs available on the market)

                                    Like a downhill horse doesn’t have a learning disability. It’s a conformational one.

                                    You just cannot mix a physical and a psychological aspect.
                                    I'm not sure where you think this is earth shattering or different from what anyone else said.

                                    I *do* think most claims of horses not learning well are trainer (which is often an amateur who is learning it herself) problems, and less often horse personality issues.
                                    If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                    -meupatdoes

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                                    • #58
                                      I was thinking of this thread - my 5 year old mare has regressed slightly and gotten a bit fussy in the contact. We've decided to go back to basics and a longer frame and pushing her a bit less with training new things. Her attitude is super and she's willing to try so much that I think we were doing too much too soon. The new unsteadiness reminded us that she's not actually strong enough yet to carry herself in a shorter frame. It's tricky with young horses to balance what they're truly ready to do vs. what they're willing to offer you.
                                      Mr. Sandman
                                      sand me a man
                                      make him so sandy
                                      the sandiest man

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