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Forced to "Point Out" of the lower levels

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  • #21
    Originally posted by seeuatx View Post
    How would this effect horses who are either maxed out at a certain level (say 2nd, because perhaps they hate changes or their collected work leaves something to be desired)? How would this effect well schooled (and shown) horses that are no longer capable of showing at certain levels (physically, mentally, etc.) yet are still perfect for showing someone the ropes at the lower levels
    With our system in the UK we have another grading system for riders as well as well as horses based on the highest level you have won points at. Horses can be 'downgraded' if the ride passes to a lower level rider. Therefore if say a PSG horse was sold to a Novice rider then it's number of points would be lowered to allow it to be ridden in Novice classes. Downgraded horses cannot qualify for regional championships for 6 months from the date of downgrading and if a higher level rider starts to ride the horse again then the original points would be re-instated.

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    • #22
      My opinion is based on the current discussion about qualifying for Third...

      If we can justify such a rule, then surely we can say that once you have acheived 50 scores at Training level Test 1 that are above, say 54%, you are done with that test with that particular horse.

      I literally see riders here that show Intro B and Training 1 for years on end. One lady in my acquaintance has done so for over 8 years now. She and her adult daughter collect ribbons and scores riding tests far beneath their ability levels so that they may win year-end awards with their respective breed associations, local clubs, etc - every year, same horses. I don't think the sport as a whole should condone this behaviour.

      If you are a beginner with a schoolmaster, kudos for finding a horse that can help to teach you the ropes. If you ride it at Intro for the next 5 years to collect ribbons, shame on you. Once you exceed your point limit with your partner, move on.

      If unable, then take time off from showing and develop the skills that you need. If your horse has brought you as far as it is able, then the choice is yours to upgrade horses or school at home.

      I couldn't care less personally - my scores and progress matter most to me (and I usually score better than these people because I understand the training scale), but looking at things through my student's eyes - many of whom are beginners in the sport, I can easily see how they become discouraged.

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      • #23
        Irrelevant now to me since the horse is retired, but such a rule would have made my life rather difficult and probably stopped me showing. My horse reached 2nd level, was schooling 3rd, but had unrealiable changes and his medium trots were barely adequate for 2nd level. To show a difference at 3rd between medium and extended - doubtful for me/him. So...I'm sure that since I consistently placed and occasionally won at 2nd level with scores mostly in the 57% to 63% range, I would have "pointed out" of 2nd. So then what? Show a BAD 3rd level with iffy changes and no extended trot? What would be the point? But I could potter around indefinitely at 2nd and keep TRYING to get enough improvement in changes and gaits to move up. The reality of whether I'd make or not is ??? Horse got too arthritic. Is retired. Bebe MIGHT do Intro by the middle/end of summer this year.

        I think the "forever training level" riders who ARE doing it just for ribbons and year end championships could be more easily handled with some sort of Maiden/Novice/Limit limitation put in place. I know that when I was showing in open non-dressage shows, my horse and I (the same one I converted to dressage) quickly Maidened/Noviced out of HUS/Hunter Hack/Hunters/Jumpers and we had to put on our big girl panties and jump the bigger fences in the limit and then open divisions.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by FuelsterFarm View Post
          My opinion is based on the current discussion about qualifying for Third...

          If we can justify such a rule, then surely we can say that once you have acheived 50 scores at Training level Test 1 that are above, say 54%, you are done with that test with that particular horse.

          I literally see riders here that show Intro B and Training 1 for years on end. One lady in my acquaintance has done so for over 8 years now. She and her adult daughter collect ribbons and scores riding tests far beneath their ability levels so that they may win year-end awards with their respective breed associations, local clubs, etc - every year, same horses. I don't think the sport as a whole should condone this behaviour.
          The sport currently condones riders who stay at GP permanently, winning awards and ribbons year after year. Shouldn't GP riders be forced to retire after they have accumulated enough points? If we want to make dressage a revolving door, let's do it at the top as well as at the bottom.

          Some people have fun just showing at intro and training levels, and I don't see what the problem is. MAYBE they could move to a different level and ride harder tests if they were motivated. But why force them to? Not everyone has the goal of moving up the levels. Some people are happy to go to shows and ride at their comfort level. You aren't really competing against anyone but yourself, so why does it matter so much what other people do?

          If you are a beginner with a schoolmaster, kudos for finding a horse that can help to teach you the ropes. If you ride it at Intro for the next 5 years to collect ribbons, shame on you. Once you exceed your point limit with your partner, move on.

          If unable, then take time off from showing and develop the skills that you need. If your horse has brought you as far as it is able, then the choice is yours to upgrade horses or school at home.
          What is the point of all this? Unless people want to keep moving up, they shouldn't be allowed to show at all? If someone owns a horse FOR LIFE (yes, we do exist!) and that horse has maxed out at 2nd level, please tell me why that rider should be banned from the show ring. Who is she hurting? I know some people are uber-competitive, but mandating this mindset is the worst thing we could do. People show for their own reasons, and we should respect that instead of trying to drive people away.
          I couldn't care less personally - my scores and progress matter most to me (and I usually score better than these people because I understand the training scale), but looking at things through my student's eyes - many of whom are beginners in the sport, I can easily see how they become discouraged.
          The best thing you could do for your students is to teach them better sportsmanship!

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          • #25
            I don't see a problem with people staying at a particular level forever, but perhaps after a certain number of "points," they should be asked to ride hors concours to give others a shot at some ribbons and/or year-end awards. That way they could continue to ride at their comfortable level, but not appear to be (or actually be, lol) ribbon and award chasers.
            Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
              I don't see a problem with people staying at a particular level forever, but perhaps after a certain number of "points," they should be asked to ride hors concours to give others a shot at some ribbons and/or year-end awards. That way they could continue to ride at their comfortable level, but not appear to be (or actually be, lol) ribbon and award chasers.
              SillyHorse nailed it on the head! THANK YOU!

              If people want to stay at Intro or Training FOREVER (whether they don't want to move up, physically are unable to move up, horse can't do the movements, etc) then they could very easily ride hors concours.
              That why the newbies will get a chance to win first place or get enough good scores to get year end awards. It goes both ways, the GP people can do the same.

              We are all human and no one goes into a show ring saying "Oh I don't care if I get last place out of 15 people". If you do, more power to you. Many people are competative and would like to win.
              Love your horse like it's the last time you'll see him

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              • #27
                If people want to stay at Intro or Training FOREVER (whether they don't want to move up, physically are unable to move up, horse can't do the movements, etc) then they could very easily ride hors concours.
                That why the newbies will get a chance to win first place or get enough good scores to get year end awards.
                See I think this would be perfect

                Molliwog- while my example of being beaten at T4 by a PSG horse doesn't happen alot, it did happen to me this summer (quick brag I did beat him in the T2 test). So while I hear what you're saying, and I do ride each test for me and my horse, it can be discouraging to be riding against others horses of that training (if the rider had been a novice I wouldn't have minded)

                I also appreciate those that are saying why they may be stuck at a level and understand that. Its hard to please all sides it really is.

                Honestly though, I work hard with my training, and I pay ALOT of money each year to ride, train, compete and join all those organizations. Its nice to have a chance at the Year End Awards. And as another poster said, anyone that goes into an arena after working hard and doesn't mind coming last probably isn't telling the truth (unless on a young horse).

                Its not all about winning BUT it sure does encourage me to keep going if I place well.
                I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by JackSprats Mom View Post
                  I pay ALOT of money each year to ride, train, compete and join all those organizations.
                  But won't you be paying MORE money if there is a system that excludes people from showing in the lower levels? At most schooling shows, it's the intro, TR and 1st level classes that get the most entries, and support the show financially.
                  ...somewhere between the talent and the potato....

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                  • #29
                    For MHSA year end - once you have won the award at that level with that horse, you are no longer in the running, even if you do the shows and win the points. Simple.
                    www.specialhorses.org
                    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

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                    • #30
                      Silly Horse - right on! That would be a palatable solution for all.

                      I don't think it fair to malign my sudents or myself for feeling this way. It is human nature to wish to be rewarded for your effort. Teaching small children why the adults keep riding the same tests for years is not an easy thing to do, though my personal goal is to get them to read their scores/comments and see improvement as we move along and not focus on the ribbons. The adults and older kids are at least able to understand, while they are still a bit disgusted by the practise.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        We had the upgrading in Canada 30 years ago. It was a flop. Speaking from personal experience, I was 13 years old, and riding Preliminary/Novice (like Training/First level now). I went to quite a few shows, and got upgraded! At that point there was a 40 point cap; which means that if you got 65% you got 6.5 points. Once you got 40 or above for the year, you were forced either not to show, or bump up a level the next year!
                        So the upgrading is not new, but there's always some dumb asshat out there who decides to re-invent the wheel. Just look at the mess of the US and Canada with their new dressage rules and policies!
                        Elaine Ward

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Elatu View Post
                          Once you got 40 or above for the year, you were forced either not to show, or bump up a level the next year...So the upgrading is not new, but there's always some dumb asshat out there who decides to re-invent the wheel.
                          My suggestion solves that problem -- you could continue to show at your present level, but hors concours. I hope you weren't calling me a dumb asshat for suggesting a solution to a problem, because I can assure you I am not.
                          Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                          • #33
                            I like the idea of once a horse/rider combination wins high score at Intro, 1st, and possibly 2nd, they are no longer eligible for year end at that same level.

                            But I have no quarrel with someone continuing to show and win individual classes at the same ol' level time after time. That's because there are five other ribbons to go around and I am not competitive enough to insist that mine be blue.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Point out

                              I don't know about a point out system, but I wonder if eventually we will designate classes based on the point system, instead of Adult Amateurs, etc.

                              Wouldn't it be more fair to have a class of Training Level for those who are Medium rated, Advanced rated? I'm not against them competing at Training Level, they might have green horses.

                              The problem, I guess, is that no scores will be counted until you apply for Basic status to move to Third Level.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I think there is already one safeguard in place: if you win a championship at a certain level (I think it's the regional championships), you cannot ride in the championship again. I don't see why we need more than that.

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