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Charlotte du Jardin Eliminated for Blood on Spur at Rotterdam

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  • I'm a lawyer too. I also like evidence that is reasoned and considered - I'm sympathetic to your frustrations here. I don't know if I'm any more convinced that an accidental knick with a spur is animal abuse than I am by the argument that riding in general is abuse. I look askance at denigrating someone for that mistake as an abusive person. I thought of Charlotte Dujardin and Carl Hester as anti-rollkur. You're obviously entitled to your opinions. I find them confusing based on what I've seen of the rider in question.
    Mr. Sandman
    sand me a man
    make him so sandy
    the sandiest man

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Knights Mom View Post
      The least you guys could do is come up with a put down that hasn't already been done to death when protecting your idol.

      I've heard all of them a million times and it doesn't render my opinion any less valid.

      And I'm still the same person who posted (to your liking) on law on the Barisone thread.
      I don't think that anyone said that CDJ is their "idol" but many people view her as a good rider that does right by her horses with a solid training program. CDJ is not my idol, but I think she is a fine rider and have no negative opinion of her. I am having trouble understanding your opinion because I don't see her excessively ride BTV. Then again, I haven't watched many of her competitions lately, so maybe I should play closer attention, but I don't recall her being a rider that cranks her horses heads in.

      What you said to whoever's liking on the Barisone thread is completely irrelevant here.

      The equine sports world is unique in that the right of a person to comment observations or opinions is not recognized. Immediately a bizarre demand for proof of some status is demanded - a proof of ones legitimacy of competence.

      Ever walk into a bar during a football game and hear the following conversation:

      "Hey that quarterback really sucks"
      "How would you know? Have you ever quarterbacked in the Superbowl?"

      Nope, you'd never hear it. Weird that you think that line of thinking is appropriate in the horse sport world when it is not appropriate in any other sport.
      It actually does happen in other sports and hobbies. Not in every conversation, but it does happen. Plus, when you say CDJ is a cruel rider, or rides BTV, or supports x, y, or z, it is a bold statement and people are going to want further info in an attempt to understand or support such a bold statement that is quite contrary to popular belief. The same thing could happen in football if someone says a QB sucks, but it turns out that he has good stats, so someone might argue with this statement of the QB sucking and then it could get into a dialogue of competence and proof.

      With equestrian sports many of us watch and participate. With football, many just watch and don't participate/actually play, so the dynamic is a little bit different. It is a bit more normal or expected that one does not actually play and is only a fan or observer. I think that brings a different element to discussion.
      .
      As to ISES, I know your cognitive dissonance makes you berate them but they are an active, vibrant, influential, global veterinary force who legitimately engages in studies.

      And ALL those criteria you claim that folks like me don't have, well ISES actually does have it in spades but yet strangely they still remain unqualified to you. Ain't that something!

      And just as you aim your criticism of my alleged lack of competence towards me you somehow manage to forget the same question of competency could be directed at YOU as well.

      So how many gold medal winners do we have here? I'll wait for you to introduce yourselves.

      Until then, step back. You don't own the horse world.
      Ease up on taking it personal and the attitude, that leads to exactly zero chance of a constructive conversation happening. They are just questioning ISES, which is kind of questionable on some matters IMO. Even if I were a "gold medal winner" I could be incompetent, have poor judgment, or get to the top in questionable ways, so that's kind of a moot point.

      CDJ is one of the last people I'd expect to practice cruel or poor horsemanship, but hey, I've been wrong before. I still think this is a one time thing, and not an indicator of an abusive rider.



      On another note, I think eventing, specifically in North America, could take a look at this situation and how seriously the blood rule and lameness is observed. There were no excuses, no odd political relationships, it was cut and dry. There was blood, the rider was eliminated. There was lameness, also eliminated.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Knights Mom View Post
        So how many gold medal winners do we have here? I'll wait for you to introduce yourselves.

        Until then, step back. You don't own the horse world.
        Assuming you mean "gold medal winner" as in "having won a gold medal at an international Grand Prix competition" and not the "been awarded a gold medal by the US federation," then by this criteria all us (including you) should "step back."

        I would assume if your credentials included such, someone would have brought that up by now, so neither do you "own the horse world."

        Anyone can publish a scientific study. Anyone citing one that purports to attest to the "mental state" of an animal is using junk science. These studies are inherently biased because they require a human to apply interpretation to an animal's actions through anthropomorphism. There is no evidence whatsoever that any of these veterinary studies have any scientific merit by the standards of peer-reviewed publication and that is why they have to make up their own group to publish them. Bunk, all of it.
        Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
        you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

        Comment


        • Just because ISES (not sure I’d use that acronym, but hey) “legitimately engages in studies” does not mean that what they’re doing is rigorous, high quality science.

          Just because a study gets published somewhere doesn’t mean it’s a well designed study using good science.

          When you start with a belief and cherry pick findings that support your position, you’re doing it wrong (see also: anti-vaxxers).

          Comment


          • Just spoke with my friend/instructor who is there IRL. Asked her whether she saw or heard anything. She said the ride was lovely and harmonious and Charlotte has notably quiet legs. There were some riders who werent spurring excessively but just have active, sometimes swinging legs - she wasnt one of them. She didnt see the warmup but believed she would have heard as people tended to gossip about any problems they saw (And she speaks Dutch and German). So she was also surprised at the finding.

            I asked if she ever had that happen. She said she only had blood on her horse once, when her horse was acting up and was throwing himself around. She did have a rub on another horse that she believed was from the contact with the area where the strap goes through the spur on the inside.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by emipou View Post

              I saw that ride and he rode that test beautifully. The nick happened when Legolas reared up from the crowd reaction to the music (It was Under Pressure with a little Legolas rap at the beginning). It was such a bummer that he was eliminated, and he too was devastated by that happening.

              For the record, I felt SP's apology was more sincere.
              I know CD would never try to hurt her horses and that she is a big advocate for animal welfare, but her message seemed to be more concerned about reaction from people, rather than about a promise to do better, or an apology to the horse. I'm NOT in the anti-CD camp, just felt that way about her message.
              Have to say I totally agree with this. I was also there in Vegas and I was so sad by what happened because Legolas clearly spooked hard at the very beginning of the test because the crowd got really excited by their music. I had no idea he was eliminated until his score stopped appearing on the standings and didn't figure out for a couple hours why he'd been eliminated. Had it not been for that spook he may have been in the top 3 for World Cup 2015.

              Here is Steffen's apology. He is a total class act.
              http://www.eurodressage.com/sites/de...ology_0_01.jpg

              That said, I still don't think CD did anything abusive and a similar circumstance could have happened before they came into the arena.

              Comment


              • Knights Mom I mentioned how I admired and respected your input on the Barisone thread, where you limited your comments to factual input and refrained from emotional name-calling. Your contributions there are valuable. I mentioned that thread here because what you initially lobbed over the wall on this thread was full of preemptive, speculative, nasty, name-calling to those who might, at some point in the future, call you a name. Also, you ranted about standing on facts yet provided none.

                It's almost like two different people are posting under the same user ID, your input and tone is so wildly different. One is credible. The other, merely inflammatory and self-absorbed. You are hellbent on martyrdom, for whatever reasons, and that's your right.
                Last edited by TMares; Aug. 22, 2019, 10:09 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knights Mom View Post
                  Honestly folks, I don't especially care how you rag on me. But I WILL speak my mind.

                  There's a blood rule. Blood was seen. She was disqualified. She admits and accepts it. So you should accept it.

                  You might like her riding, but I and many others don't. And those that don't are made up of ALL KINDS of horsepeople from backyard people to GP riders to former judges to trainers.

                  Her BTV riding as all BTV riding was found to be harmful in over 85 veterinary studies conducted by the International Society of Equitation Science.

                  Not me....... THEM.

                  That kind of riding is continually being spoken out against.

                  So you can abuse me, call me names, I just don't care. I'll just keep coming back WITH FACTS. And, in the presence of facts, the infantile accusations of being a basement dweller, or bouncing on my horse's back, or being a Klingon make the accuser look far more stupid than I could ever look because I spoke out on behalf of the horse.
                  I did not see any of this in her riding or teaching at her symposium...in fact the opposite.

                  Have you been to her symposiums or met her?
                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Knights Mom View Post
                    The least you guys could do is come up with a put down that hasn't already been done to death when protecting your idol.

                    I've heard all of them a million times and it doesn't render my opinion any less valid.

                    And I'm still the same person who posted (to your liking) on law on the Barisone thread.

                    The equine sports world is unique in that the right of a person to comment observations or opinions is not recognized. Immediately a bizarre demand for proof of some status is demanded - a proof of ones legitimacy of competence.

                    Ever walk into a bar during a football game and hear the following conversation:

                    "Hey that quarterback really sucks"
                    "How would you know? Have you ever quarterbacked in the Superbowl?"

                    Nope, you'd never hear it. Weird that you think that line of thinking is appropriate in the horse sport world when it is not appropriate in any other sport.
                    .

                    As to ISES, I know your cognitive dissonance makes you berate them but they are an active, vibrant, influential, global veterinary force who legitimately engages in studies.

                    And ALL those criteria you claim that folks like me don't have, well ISES actually does have it in spades but yet strangely they still remain unqualified to you. Ain't that something!

                    And just as you aim your criticism of my alleged lack of competence towards me you somehow manage to forget the same question of competency could be directed at YOU as well.

                    So how many gold medal winners do we have here? I'll wait for you to introduce yourselves.

                    Until then, step back. You don't own the horse world.
                    Why the sneering and insults? You are doing exactly what you are protesting about - in spades, as you would say. Would that attitude work in court? I doubt it.

                    Approach the bench...

                    The section I bolded demonstrates what you contemptuously refer to as cognitive dissonance. The equine world is NOT unique here (I actually laughed out loud when I read that) - it happens in many other sports and other aspects of life. The quarterback example you gave DOES happen - ALL. THE. TIME. In the stands, in online comments and forums... everywhere. "Your quarterback - your idol - really sucks and he is short!" "Where is your Super Bowl ring, champ - because his stats for the past few years say otherwise! (supplies link to stats)" "Oh yeah? Well, the stats make him look better than he is! His QBR for this game was a joke! I could throw better than that!" And on and on it goes... with far more intensity than a dressage thread where someone gets prickly when their opinion is not instantly embraced. Ain't that something...

                    I am just puzzled about your heated posts. Everyone here did not say CDJ was their idol - your obvious contempt and loathing for her seems to be clouding the issue here. Your opinion - and that is fine. But then, you have made it very clear that "folks like me" are inferior fools that are beneath you - and our opinions matter little. So with my meaningless pathetic opinion that does not measure up to the great wisdom and intelligence of Knight's Mom in all things dressage/equestrian/football related... I have seen CDJ ride in person - just once - not cranked BTV in any way (but then, I am an idiot who obviously does not know what I am seeing). Yeah, it was just a few hours and not in a private ring out behind the barn and again, I am apparently a clueless, drooling moron - but whatever. I watched Anky do demos at Spruce Meadows years ago that made me cringe/wince. CDJ is not my idol - no matter what you insist. They handled the issue well, accepted responsibility and moved on. Sh*t happens. If this was a regular occurrence, that would be another matter.

                    If only AQHA were as rigid with spurring issues...
                    Last edited by smoofox; Aug. 22, 2019, 01:42 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Once upon a time, at a county fair, my five year old daughter presented her pony in hand for the first time. Her groom, who is her mother, wiped out her sweet pony's nostril as they were walking into the ring. While doing so, I inadvertently nicked her mucus membranes with a fingernail.... and my five year old and her cute pony stood in the ring dripping blood from the nostril for the whole class. I am a vet, and the county fair horse experts were convinced I must really be an evil cheater. Of course not the same as an international dressage competition but sh@# happens when dealing with living breathing creatures, and it's not always nefarious, evil or overdone.
                      http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cool-S...m/251196806403

                      Comment


                      • An interview with Horse & Hound. I really feel that she's quite saddened by this and really values the welfare of her animals.
                        ‘Now I have to move on and keep my head held high. All I can do now is support Carl and the others — and I will’

                        Comment


                        • The thing that bothers me is that she seems more sad by the comments and social media response than she does over the spurring.
                          I am of the camp that it was an obvious accident and think she dealt with it gracefully, but come on CD. Stop it with being sad about public response. That's a given - we all know how the horse and dressage world is and all those experts.
                          "I am but a passenger on this ship"
                          -- Stendal (epitaph)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by emipou View Post
                            The thing that bothers me is that she seems more sad by the comments and social media response than she does over the spurring.
                            I am of the camp that it was an obvious accident and think she dealt with it gracefully, but come on CD. Stop it with being sad about public response. That's a given - we all know how the horse and dressage world is and all those experts.
                            Charlotte has been very open and honest about her battle with depression following the 2012 Olympics. Even if the worst of it is behind her, that doesn't mean it can't rear its ugly head during tough times. I can't speak for her, but as someone who suffers from both depression and anxiety myself, it can be very difficult to get outside of your own headspace when people start saying mean and nasty things about you. For Pete's sake, cut her some slack. She's only human.
                            In a society that profits from your self-doubt, liking yourself is a rebellious act.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by see u at x View Post

                              Charlotte has been very open and honest about her battle with depression following the 2012 Olympics. Even if the worst of it is behind her, that doesn't mean it can't rear its ugly head during tough times. I can't speak for her, but as someone who suffers from both depression and anxiety myself, it can be very difficult to get outside of your own headspace when people start saying mean and nasty things about you. For Pete's sake, cut her some slack. She's only human.
                              I haven't attacked her. I too suffer from debilitating anxiety so I can appreciate that. Regardless, her public message should have focused more on being upset that it happened, not being upset that people are saying nasty things. She DID screw up. I'd like more ownership on that. That's my opinion. It is not an attack and I have not said anything nasty about her.
                              "I am but a passenger on this ship"
                              -- Stendal (epitaph)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by emipou View Post
                                The thing that bothers me is that she seems more sad by the comments and social media response than she does over the spurring.
                                I am of the camp that it was an obvious accident and think she dealt with it gracefully, but come on CD. Stop it with being sad about public response. That's a given - we all know how the horse and dressage world is and all those experts.
                                I just think that she really values her fans, and doesn't want to dissapoint them. People that have suffered from or stil battle with depression and/or anxiety can really take what others think of them to heart and be quite critical of themselves. I'm not sure where she stands with this, but just something to consider. The feeling of letting your fans down, can be a real downer. What was she supposed to say about the spurring really? It was an accident that she apologized for.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by emipou View Post

                                  I haven't attacked her. I too suffer from debilitating anxiety so I can appreciate that. Regardless, her public message should have focused more on being upset that it happened, not being upset that people are saying nasty things. She DID screw up. I'd like more ownership on that. That's my opinion. It is not an attack and I have not said anything nasty about her.
                                  I really don’t see this as a case of her screwing up at all. She rode the horse the same way she does at every other show. This time, for whatever reason - whether a combo of thin coat, mud, sweat, sticky rowels, bug bites, whatever - the horse got a very minor rub. For which she apologized and gracefully accepted the consequences. She didn’t blame her equipment, or the groom, or the steward, or complain about the rule. She accepted that she was responsible and apologized for letting the rest of the team down, as well as her horse. What more is she supposed to do for more “ownership” of the situation?

                                  Comment


                                  • But she didn't screw up. There's no action to regret. A thing happened where a rowel got clogged with arena footing and poked a flank. Maybe she just shouldn't ride.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by emipou View Post

                                      I haven't attacked her. I too suffer from debilitating anxiety so I can appreciate that. Regardless, her public message should have focused more on being upset that it happened, not being upset that people are saying nasty things. She DID screw up. I'd like more ownership on that. That's my opinion. It is not an attack and I have not said anything nasty about her.
                                      I never accused you of saying mean or nasty things about her. I used the word "people" in the most general of terms. You ask for ownership; what specifically would you like her to say? As BigMama and CanteringCarrot said, she didn't screw up. It was an accident, and accidents can, and usually do, happen to all of us. Is there a specific sword that you would like her fall upon, metaphorically speaking? Maybe a video of her down on her knees in front of the horse apologizing and pleading for forgiveness will do the trick?
                                      In a society that profits from your self-doubt, liking yourself is a rebellious act.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by emipou View Post
                                        I haven't attacked her. I too suffer from debilitating anxiety so I can appreciate that. Regardless, her public message should have focused more on being upset that it happened, not being upset that people are saying nasty things. She DID screw up. I'd like more ownership on that. That's my opinion. It is not an attack and I have not said anything nasty about her.
                                        Why?

                                        Her official statement was exclusively acceptance of the decision and apologies to fans, team and horse: total ownership.

                                        Her H&H interview later was the same plus shared her gratitude for support and devastation over the unkind comments.

                                        Why is she not allowed to express dismay at internet bullying?

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by TMares View Post
                                          But she didn't screw up. There's no action to regret. A thing happened where a rowel got clogged with arena footing and poked a flank. Maybe she just shouldn't ride.
                                          Hee. Exactly this, except that in this day and age of rabid Animal Rights nutjobs, one needs to take blame for any injury, no matter how small and apologize the hell out of it because if that doesn't happen, it's worse fodder for the nutjobs. She did the exact right thing to apologize and did it in a way that didn't make the whole sport look like a steaming pile of bloodied sides.
                                          Ahhhh, spring is here. The birds are singing, the trees are budding and the paddocks are making their annual transformation from cake mix to cookie dough.

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