Stallion Spotlight

Zucchero Gold - Wandres, Frederic - 838-BC18_REU2723-foto_reumann

Real Estate Spotlight

untitled (115 of 123)-Edit
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

" Buck B Horsemanship"/Vaquero style/Bridle horse = Dressage?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #41
    I've watched some videos and as I've said many times. I see a lovely rider doing some lateral work. I will not follow someone blindly though. Very interesting conversation though and I always give everyone power to follow what feels right to them.

    Does he go into more detail in the DVDs? Maybe I can rent them or something.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
      mvp ......

      I'm just saying for me given any info I've seen, read, and anything anyone has posted on here, it isn't correct for my path. For where I'm going,I only feel comfortable incorporating small amounts of it here and there. I do not feel comfortable trying to converge his techniques too much into my riding by just going by what I think Buck means. I'm not looking to show but I'm looking to train up the levels in a more traditional way. This is because I have more access to knowledge though books, videos, instructors I trust. And instructors that I've seen move up the levels so I trust that they understand how all the pieces work together.

      .......
      Words and details matter if we are to provide helpful comments. We can't read your mind or intentions, so perhaps it would be useful if you could:

      1.) Define "it"......as "it isn't correct for my path" as you see it.

      2.) What features of "it" do you feel are inappropriate for what you want to do?

      3.) Define what qualities you are looking for in "train up the levels in a more traditional way" that BB's methods don't allow.

      I personally don't see any problems with the work done by a lot of "cowboys" and the ultimate goal of producing an advanced riding horse as seen in the work done by SRS.

      Now if you are discussing an "advanced horse" as currently seen in the dressage competition ring, that may have another answer.
      Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
      Alfred A. Montapert

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

        For those folks in the US east of the Mississippi, there are 3 WE shows in TN, PA and VA in April, July & August
        https://www.erahc.org/shows-events.html

        The organizers are a fun group of folks. You don't need an iberian horse to play in this sandbox....all breeds welcome.
        and some in the Ocala area as well. https://www.facebook.com/events/309712206485667/

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          pluvinel I'll write back more specific questions/points later. I have a ton of errands to do but I'll come back later and try to be more specific about what I'm questioning. Thank you!

          Comment


          • #45
            Lunabear.....I ask questions, because I see nothing wrong with this sort of work as foundational for any riding discipline.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmlOanVeqxo

            As a matter of fact, I teach all my horses to do this so if I ever have to mount in a strange place (like a fallen tree log, or a trailer fender) the will align themselves to make it easier for me.

            I went to one of these "trainers" who thought he would show me up.....and it shut him right up when I demonstrated with my horse.....the hard part was clambering up on the fence.
            Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
            Alfred A. Montapert

            Comment


            • #46
              I would totally agree with the claim that the top Vaquero riders are making advanced performance horses. I'd even agree with the claim that their horses may be cattier, lighter, more reactive, more supple, than most or even all dressage horses.

              Also that correct riding respects the biomechanics of the horse and will show many similarities across disciplines.

              But I don't think that Vaquero riding will get you a finished dressage horse, in particular to the aspects of going on contact and improving the gaits.

              I also think that people are well advised to seek out the *best* trainers and horsemen locally. So if this is an area with a strong Vaquero tradition but no gifted dressage trainers, it makes sense local people are following the western school.

              In any case most ammies and even low level pros don't get much past first level dressage, so its not a huge loss of opportunity.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                I would totally agree with the claim that the top Vaquero riders are making advanced performance horses. I'd even agree with the claim that their horses may be cattier, lighter, more reactive, more supple, than most or even all dressage horses.

                Agree

                Also that correct riding respects the biomechanics of the horse and will show many similarities across disciplines.

                But I don't think that Vaquero riding will get you a finished dressage horse, in particular to the aspects of going on contact and improving the gaits.

                It depends on what/how you define a "finished dressage horse". If you want to win in the current competition environment, I agree. If you want a horse that encompasses the ideals of a light riding horse then I think the vaquero tradition has a lot to offer.

                I also think that people are well advised to seek out the *best* trainers and horsemen locally. So if this is an area with a strong Vaquero tradition but no gifted dressage trainers, it makes sense local people are following the western school.

                In any case most ammies and even low level pros don't get much past first level dressage, so its not a huge loss of opportunity.
                If you aspire to something like this
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulyaoH-cEs

                I don't see any problem with any of the following work as foundational to doing anything higher in the dressage levels.....even competition dressage.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI7h4uIZBiQ

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOWmb-I-nOE

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts
                Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                Alfred A. Montapert

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

                  If you aspire to something like this
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulyaoH-cEs

                  I don't see any problem with any of the following work as foundational to doing anything higher in the dressage levels.....even competition dressage.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI7h4uIZBiQ

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOWmb-I-nOE

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts
                  Well, as for what's in the BuckB video, it won't prevent anyone from going higher in the levels, but it's not the type of riding I would do if the end goal was truly to do dressage shows or become a SRS rider.

                  Buck's horse is broken at the 3rd vertebrea, I don't advocate at all for all that backing up, and his horse is mostly off the bit (light), and onto the forehand.
                  Yes, you will see this at dressage shows, and it is penalized.

                  It's fine for general riding. I'm sure his horses are well trained to be quiet, nice to ride and versatile.

                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                  HORSING mobile training app

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    As they say "many roads lead to Rome" if you feel this type of riding fits with your goals for your horse and your riding, go for it! If it doesn't then follow the road that appeals to you. There is no one cookie cutter answer for everyone.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
                      mvp I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying "ranch horses" in a demeaning tone. Not sure where you are, but I'm out west and ranch horse is highly trained, highly valued horse out here. They start at 10k and go up from there in price.

                      I'm just saying for me given any info I've seen, read, and anything anyone has posted on here, it isn't correct for my path. For where I'm going,I only feel comfortable incorporating small amounts of it here and there. I do not feel comfortable trying to converge his techniques too much into my riding by just going by what I think Buck means. I'm not looking to show but I'm looking to train up the levels in a more traditional way. This is because I have more access to knowledge though books, videos, instructors I trust. And instructors that I've seen move up the levels so I trust that they understand how all the pieces work together.

                      I see nothing wrong with something devouted to Buck's methods if they see that to fit their needs and have instruction they trust with it. I'm seeing to many "Buck B" wanna be types that I don't think have full grasp of maybe what he's talking about it and don't wish to train with them.
                      Makes sense to me.

                      I don't know where you are (no location listed in your profile), so I have no idea if you have seen riders in California and the Great Basin.

                      And I choose between what a Vaquero-type horseman can teach me and what I know I need to learn in order to make up my dressage nugget. Lots of what I do is closer to traditional dressage training for a few reasons. 1. I have more consistent, "live" help from those kinds of trainers. 2. This is what I have chosen to pursue with this horse right now. Insofar as the Vaquero guys are interested in making up bridle horses and not grand prix horses, there are some aspects of training that dressagists worry about (e.g. a good change, a particular relationship with a snaffle, piaffe and passage) that they don't. Or, perhaps more correctly, they don't worry about at the same phases of a horse's training that a dressagist taking a horse up the levels with.

                      Sadly, then, for all these reasons, I mainly ride with dressage folks. But I will go learn from the Vaquero guys.

                      Heck, I'm planning to take my flighty dressage mare to a guy who can help me start her on cattle because she's too afraid of them. The pro who would have me skip over this problem because "she'll never see cattle at a dressage show" isn't doing it right, IMHO, LOL. The reason to care about this mare's being afraid or OK with cattle has more to do with building her confidence than cattle, per se. This is another piece I take from the Vaquero guys, though any good horseman should care about his horse's emotional comfort.

                      But! And a bit like George Morris--- if you put Brannaman on a dressage horse that could do the movements, I'll bet you that he could softly get those done. The way Brannaman puts the onus on the rider to be good with his training decisions, his feel and his timing is very welcome.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        My dressage foundation came from an old cowboy who was very much in the same tradition. He did not do all the flag and long leadrope stuff for hours like is done now, but he certainly used a very long leadrope - all our horses ground tied, because he was also our farrier, and he'd drop that rope, and catch them if they started wandering off. They soon learned that simply standing quietly was easiest.

                        He taught a class called "training" which all the instructors at the riding school I started riding at attended, as well as some other adults (my mom included.) I watched, and spent all my free barn time with him listening to his lectures on various theory around horse training. I also had a 1970s translation version of the German Federation book which was handed out at the riding school as the basis upon which our instruction was focused. They aligned. I agree about not doing all the backing and getting the horse overbent - I feel like those are things which have come to be because of the weekend clinic as a way to teach horse and rider to get along methodology of these cowboy clinics. Those will make getting a horse out to the contact hard to achieve. But general good horsemanship will work for any horse, and Buck teaches a lot of that.

                        I always had that classical background sitting there, took some dressage lessons in college, but it wasn't until my mid-30s I was really focused on dressage lessons. And with my background, I never quite got why lateral work and bend are so hard, or why half halts are this mysterious thing. They simply are things the horse is expected to do, and that's always been the case for me. That background wouldn't have taught my horse piaffe, but clean uphill changes were the norm for me.


                        Where I think dressage isn't a pattern class vs western is - in western, prompt transitions without a reaction from the horse other than doing it at exactly the correct place was the focus, with the horse traveling in its basic natural gaits, at whatever speed I tell it to. In dressage, it's more important I work on improving my horses' gaits to be more uphill, more cadenced, showing more bend and suppleness. Ideally transitions happen at the right place, but emphasis on balance overrules promptness for letters, especially at the lower levels. Now, because I had supple horses who bent properly and maintained balance in transitions in addition to being prompt, I tended to win pattern classes. But I can certainly see why they are seen as different - the development and gymnasticization of the horse is supposed to be shown in dressage, and is not a concern in a western horsemanship class.
                        If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                        -meupatdoes

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by netg View Post
                          .......

                          Where I think dressage isn't a pattern class vs western is - in western, prompt transitions without a reaction from the horse other than doing it at exactly the correct place was the focus, with the horse traveling in its basic natural gaits, at whatever speed I tell it to. In dressage, it's more important I work on improving my horses' gaits to be more uphill, more cadenced, showing more bend and suppleness. Ideally transitions happen at the right place, but emphasis on balance overrules promptness for letters, especially at the lower levels. Now, because I had supple horses who bent properly and maintained balance in transitions in addition to being prompt, I tended to win pattern classes. But I can certainly see why they are seen as different - the development and gymnasticization of the horse is supposed to be shown in dressage, and is not a concern in a western horsemanship class.
                          I am not arguing but pointing out that this is statement focuses on what wins in a competition ring....be it in a western or english discipline.

                          So, I have to ask what exactly is the OP wanting to get out of a BB clinic?

                          I have not ridden with BB, but I have ridden with Mark Rashid and the people there ranged from the clueless to fairly advanced riders. They all lacked basic understanding on setting expectations for the horse.

                          The cowboys like BB & Rashid focus on training for a functional horse. Anyone can use this background to further specialize into dressage or western disciplines.

                          If someone wants to win in the competition ring, then by all means produce what the judges are pinning....western or english. The current dressage focus on "gaits" is just because that is what judges are currently emphasizing.

                          But I can tell you that 40 years ago, that was not the case in a dressage competition.

                          In those "olden times" in dressage ...."prompt transitions without a reaction from the horse other than doing it at exactly the correct place was the focus, with the horse traveling in its basic natural gaits" what the emphasis to show that horse was sublimely obedient to the rider's requests.

                          IMHO this current obsession with "gaits" is being taken to extremes. And this focus on "dressage as competition" vs "dressage as training" is being driven by the USDF and the FEI.

                          This will eventually produce dressage horses with caricatures of "normal" gaits much the same way that the "big lick" TWH are a caricature of the natural TWH.....or in dog breeds, how the "crouchy walk" of the GSD that was being pinned in the show ring led to dogs with medical issues (hip dysplacia)
                          Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                          Alfred A. Montapert

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

                            Buck's horse is broken at the 3rd vertebrea, I don't advocate at all for all that backing up, and his horse is mostly off the bit (light), and onto the forehand.
                            Yes, you will see this at dressage shows, and it is penalized.

                            It's fine for general riding. I'm sure his horses are well trained to be quiet, nice to ride and versatile.
                            I'm with you. I think the horse's neck is too still throughout and that is part of the problem that, I suspect, creates the shape of the neck that's bad.

                            But boy-howdy you can see similar in a ton of dressage horses-- not just the shape of the neck, but the stillness/stiffness of it.

                            Meh, I'd just school mine differently. With these advanced horses where you work on collection a lot, I think it's tempting to just keep them there and refine their posture. I hope, however, that if you make a decision to keep an active, supple neck during your work by asking for some stretching more frequently, you can correct this "posing" problem.

                            I have no doubt that Brannaman can do this with a horse's neck if he decides to make it a priority. So can, of course, any rider who is competent in their hand and their riding generally.

                            I also look at that horse Brannaman is riding. I think I have seen him in person. What I see is a horse who is a helluva lot closer to the architecture of the WB than the stock breed horses most western folks are riding now. He's bigger, squarer, with a flatter croup and neck set on more vertical (by far) than the low little Quarter Horses folks ride. And that choice of horse gets Brannaman some distance toward making a horse who can be so prompt and able to sit a bit. That said, I'll bet that if you saw that horse untacked, you'd see that he was level, not uphill, when he was just standing there. I'm sure Brannaman can feel uphill posture in whatever horse he rides. But I don't think his vocabulary, and therefore the conceptual framework underlaying what he does, means that he explicitly focuses on that feel. Same would go for the "improve the gaits" project some of you name.

                            Rather, I think Brannaman would talk about making a horse able to do a job in a way that is mentally easy for him and physically easy and reliable for his rider. I think he'd agree that if you rode the horse as well as he intends, the gaits would improve. Or rather, the horse would be using his body the very best his conformation allowed him to because you are giving him that quality of a ride. If you had his respect enough and time over a beer to have an in-depth conversation about whether or not he agreed that his horses were carrying themselves in an uphill postuer all the time, as well as able to collect and extend on a dime without losing their balance, I think he'd say yes to all that. But he might give you a hard time about merely "improving the gaits" as being a rather insufficient goal.
                            Last edited by mvp; Feb. 11, 2019, 06:46 AM.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post

                              Well, as for what's in the BuckB video, it won't prevent anyone from going higher in the levels, but it's not the type of riding I would do if the end goal was truly to do dressage shows or become a SRS rider.

                              Buck's horse is broken at the 3rd vertebrea, I don't advocate at all for all that backing up, and his horse is mostly off the bit (light), and onto the forehand.
                              Yes, you will see this at dressage shows, and it is penalized.

                              It's fine for general riding. I'm sure his horses are well trained to be quiet, nice to ride and versatile.
                              I agree that the horse is broken in the 3rd vertebra.

                              We don't know anything about this horse....
                              We don't know why the horse is being backed up.....
                              We don't know if it came to this clinic that way.....
                              We don't know what is happening in these short clips.....

                              Ergo, jumping immediately to criticize is a tad premature.

                              The video clips are of a training event. This is NOT a competition. Again, this immediate jump to "dressage is competition" vs "dressage is training."

                              There is nothing in the work that BB has done that would preclude any rider from moving up the levels....which is what the OP was originally asking about.
                              Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                              Alfred A. Montapert

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

                                I am not arguing but pointing out that this is statement focuses on what wins in a competition ring....be it in a western or english discipline.

                                So, I have to ask what exactly is the OP wanting to get out of a BB clinic?

                                I have not ridden with BB, but I have ridden with Mark Rashid and the people there ranged from the clueless to fairly advanced riders. They all lacked basic understanding on setting expectations for the horse.

                                The cowboys like BB & Rashid focus on training for a functional horse. Anyone can use this background to further specialize into dressage or western disciplines.

                                If someone wants to win in the competition ring, then by all means produce what the judges are pinning....western or english. The current dressage focus on "gaits" is just because that is what judges are currently emphasizing.

                                But I can tell you that 40 years ago, that was not the case in a dressage competition.

                                In those "olden times" in dressage ...."prompt transitions without a reaction from the horse other than doing it at exactly the correct place was the focus, with the horse traveling in its basic natural gaits" what the emphasis to show that horse was sublimely obedient to the rider's requests.

                                IMHO this current obsession with "gaits" is being taken to extremes. And this focus on "dressage as competition" vs "dressage as training" is being driven by the USDF and the FEI.

                                This will eventually produce dressage horses with caricatures of "normal" gaits much the same way that the "big lick" TWH are a caricature of the natural TWH.....or in dog breeds, how the "crouchy walk" of the GSD that was being pinned in the show ring led to dogs with medical issues (hip dysplacia)
                                Those charicatures of gaits exist now, and are ugly.

                                However, look at old videos of the SRS, when Podhajsky was in charge . Those horses do not have the same gaits they did in pasture. When they extend, their gaits are more elastic, with much more suspension, than they would have had before starting their training. And they BEND. Because that's how you teach a horse to fold the joints in the hind leg - by progressively training them, teaching them to carry themselves in a different manner. When I'm showing gaits rather than just obedience with my horse, I'm showing her sit,and bend, and have the ability to progress up the levels. Piaffe and passage develop out of collecting the gaits and adding elasticity if they're done right. It's a continuum. And when I show, I'm trying to show that. The fact I have had multiple judges comment on my test that this is a horse who is clearly poised to progress up the levels is really a huge positive to me. We have never scored super high - because she doesn't have those type of gaits. But judges acknowledge that our work is what is needed to continue to develop her. I don't really care about placing at shows, I care about that development - and focusing on riding her to show more than mere obedience, but actual work which will develop her and help her improve her canter pirouettes and the uphill balance of her changes, the sit in her half pass, etc., is part of that. That has nothing to do with Tennessee Walking Horses.
                                If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                -meupatdoes

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by netg View Post

                                  Those charicatures of gaits exist now, and are ugly.

                                  However, look at old videos of the SRS, when Podhajsky was in charge . Those horses do not have the same gaits they did in pasture. When they extend, their gaits are more elastic, with much more suspension, than they would have had before starting their training. And they BEND. Because that's how you teach a horse to fold the joints in the hind leg - by progressively training them, teaching them to carry themselves in a different manner. When I'm showing gaits rather than just obedience with my horse, I'm showing her sit,and bend, and have the ability to progress up the levels. Piaffe and passage develop out of collecting the gaits and adding elasticity if they're done right. It's a continuum. And when I show, I'm trying to show that. The fact I have had multiple judges comment on my test that this is a horse who is clearly poised to progress up the levels is really a huge positive to me. We have never scored super high - because she doesn't have those type of gaits. But judges acknowledge that our work is what is needed to continue to develop her. I don't really care about placing at shows, I care about that development - and focusing on riding her to show more than mere obedience, but actual work which will develop her and help her improve her canter pirouettes and the uphill balance of her changes, the sit in her half pass, etc., is part of that. That has nothing to do with Tennessee Walking Horses.
                                  This.

                                  Improving the gaits has nothing to do with buying a horse with huge gaits.

                                  By improving the gaits, I meant the horse learns to reach to the bit, stretch over the back, engage the hind end, take a bigger stride. Then after awhile learn to collect.

                                  My Paint mare improved from a sewing machine trot that was almost a foxtrot to having a normal two beat working trot and can do collected/ medium transitions. Her canter has also become much more balanced.

                                  I've also watched more talented horses develop proper extended trots that you would not think they had in them.

                                  Improving the gaits is part of improving the overall balance of the horse. Rhythm, cadence, gymnasticing. A four beat walk that's not tense or lateral, a two beat trot, a three beat canter.

                                  It isn't driving a big gaited horse onto the forehand. And IMHO it isn't done enough by many dressage trainers.

                                  I watch the horses schooling under our biggest name visiting trainer here, and even the ones that are schooling flying changes and collection don't move like educated horses. They move like green horses horses.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by netg View Post

                                    As I said, I am not disagreeing....just clarifying.

                                    Those charicatures of gaits exist now, and are ugly.

                                    Agreed.....

                                    And I think they will continue to get uglier if the USDF/FEI emphasis continues to focus on the gaits.

                                    I was at DaD one year where I had to stop and do a double-take to watch a horse do a simple trot in the ring. It looked like it was on pogo sticks. I truly had never seen a trot like that.


                                    However, look at old videos of the SRS, when Podhajsky was in charge . Those horses do not have the same gaits they did in pasture. When they extend, their gaits are more elastic, with much more suspension, than they would have had before starting their training. And they BEND. Because that's how you teach a horse to fold the joints in the hind leg - by progressively training them, teaching them to carry themselves in a different manner. When I'm showing gaits rather than just obedience with my horse, I'm showing her sit,and bend, and have the ability to progress up the levels.

                                    If you develop a horse to be responsive to light cues and aids, then by the biomechanics of the joints and the horse's balance, the horse will naturally have to sit and bend (thus shifting its balance) to be able execute the rider's requests.

                                    Dressage does not have a lock on this training. Perhaps the emphasis is on the gaits in dressage vs other disciplines....eg the dressage folks talk about "gaits" where other disciplines may not, but the basic training is the same.

                                    I have seen a TB getting led to the starting gate at a race meet that was exhibiting the most beautiful natural passage......think of work between the pillars where the pillars are moving (eg., the 2 grooms leading the horse)....This was under a rider. It is no different than Kyra K saying she never punished a horse for exhibiting a natural passage early in its career.

                                    My personal philosophy is that if you start with a naturally well-balanced horse, (of any breed) you have the deck stacked in your favor. And some WB's are sadly missing in this.

                                    I was looking to buy a horse. Went to one of the big-name WB breeding farms that buy the full-page ads in COTH and DaD. They showed me a horse at liberty who cantered down the long side and had to break into a trot to make the turn in the corner. The horse had no natural balance. I politely declined. However, that horse had a $$$$ trot......and I am sure he sold well, but it is not what I am looking for in a horse.

                                    Then again, I prefer a "cantering horse" to a "trotting horse."


                                    Piaffe and passage develop out of collecting the gaits and adding elasticity if they're done right. It's a continuum. And when I show, I'm trying to show that. The fact I have had multiple judges comment on my test that this is a horse who is clearly poised to progress up the levels is really a huge positive to me. We have never scored super high - because she doesn't have those type of gaits. But judges acknowledge that our work is what is needed to continue to develop her. I don't really care about placing at shows, I care about that development - and focusing on riding her to show more than mere obedience, but actual work which will develop her and help her improve her canter pirouettes and the uphill balance of her changes, the sit in her half pass, etc., is part of that. That has nothing to do with Tennessee Walking Horses.

                                    I don't understand this "binary thinking".....this "either/or" statement......that one focuses to develops the gaits OR that one develops obedience.

                                    As a matter of fact, I rode in a clinic with George Williams were we did the Trot-Canter-Trot every 3-5 strides
                                    transition exercise. Well.....you can't do that exercise if you have not developed the the horse to prompt obedience to the leg or weight or restraining aids.
                                    Again, I don't see any of the BB work that would preclude a rider wishing to progress to higher dressage levels.... which is what the OP asked about.

                                    Netg, in your own experience, you state that the foundational work you have done was recognized and rewarded in the dressage competition court.....so I don't understand the negative to BB's work.
                                    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                                    Alfred A. Montapert

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                                      This.

                                      Improving the gaits has nothing to do with buying a horse with huge gaits.

                                      By improving the gaits, I meant the horse learns to reach to the bit, stretch over the back, engage the hind end, take a bigger stride. Then after awhile learn to collect.

                                      My Paint mare improved from a sewing machine trot that was almost a foxtrot to having a normal two beat working trot and can do collected/ medium transitions. Her canter has also become much more balanced.

                                      I've also watched more talented horses develop proper extended trots that you would not think they had in them.

                                      Improving the gaits is part of improving the overall balance of the horse. Rhythm, cadence, gymnasticing. A four beat walk that's not tense or lateral, a two beat trot, a three beat canter.

                                      It isn't driving a big gaited horse onto the forehand. And IMHO it isn't done enough by many dressage trainers.

                                      I watch the horses schooling under our biggest name visiting trainer here, and even the ones that are schooling flying changes and collection don't move like educated horses. They move like green horses horses.
                                      I agree.

                                      Again, I don't see any of the BB work that would preclude a rider wishing to progress to higher dressage levels....

                                      Which is what the OP asked about.
                                      Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
                                      Alfred A. Montapert

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I need to get on my laptop to see the BB videos, my phone won't play them easily. At the start of the thread I was thinking more generally about things like disengaging the hind end that works in western horsemanship but seems counter productive to an uphill balance. I will have to watch the videos and see how that translates.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by pluvinel View Post

                                          Again, I don't see any of the BB work that would preclude a rider wishing to progress to higher dressage levels.... which is what the OP asked about.

                                          Netg, in your own experience, you state that the foundational work you have done was recognized and rewarded in the dressage competition court.....so I don't understand the negative to BB's work.
                                          But you're reading things people aren't saying into their posts, which in turn makes you come across as very argumentative, and as if you are intentionally twisting everyone else's words. It's not possible to have discussion when you state things which are contrary to what we have said, and claim you are repeating our viewpoint, then arguing against it.
                                          If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                          -meupatdoes

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X