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Update to Forum Rules: Criminal Allegations

In our continuing effort to provide an avenue for individuals to voice their opinions and experiences, we have recently reviewed and updated our forum policies. Generally, we have allowed users to share their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, trainers, etc. within the industry, and that is not changing.

When it came to overt criminal allegations, however, those discussions have in the past needed to stem from a report by a reputable news source or action by law enforcement or the legal system.

We are now expanding our policies to allow posters to share their own first-hand experiences involving overt criminal allegations, such as animal abuse or neglect, theft, etc., but only if they publicly provide their full first and last name along with the post. We still will not allow anonymous postings alleging criminal activity.

So, a user may now make a specific claim against a named individual or company, but it must be a FIRST-HAND account, and they have to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES. Users have always been legally responsible for their posts, and nothing has changed there, but we want to loosen the reins a bit and further allow the free flow of discussion and information relevant to the horse community.

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Forum rules and no-advertising policy

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(Revised 5/9/18)
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Update and Petition

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  • Update and Petition

    https://www.facebook.com/789533453/p...6809589998454/
    https://www.change.org/p/usda-amend-...511-en-us%3Av2
    Last edited by AppaloosaDressage; Nov. 11, 2018, 12:03 PM.

  • #2
    I think someone else on the FB comments said this, but contact the lawyer that worked the last case that was similar to this. That's what I would do, personally. I don't understand the USDA's reasoning. Testing again seems simple? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

    Comment


    • #3
      Holy cow.

      Looks like there is a lot in the works to help this, but if a GoFundMe comes up related to efforts to change this process, I'll GLADLY contribute.
      If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
      -meupatdoes

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes. I'd be on the phone to the lawyer Al Guden hired to handle the Sagacious situation ASAP.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post
          I think someone else on the FB comments said this, but contact the lawyer that worked the last case that was similar to this. That's what I would do, personally. I don't understand the USDA's reasoning. Testing again seems simple? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.
          Have been in touch with same lawyer and internist who got Sagacious cleared and we’re told this colt’s case is very similar to Sagacious’ situation. Our personal vet has informed us he’s starting a GoFundMe- will keep everyone posted. Thank you for reading/sharing/following here and on FB.
          Last edited by AppaloosaDressage; Nov. 9, 2018, 01:43 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't know if linking directly to a Go Fund Me is against COTH rules...


            What is USDA's actual argument? Do they just have a hard stop that says yes we 100% go by and rely on the results of this sole unreliable test.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post
              I don't know if linking directly to a Go Fund Me is against COTH rules...


              What is USDA's actual argument? Do they just have a hard stop that says yes we 100% go by and rely on the results of this sole unreliable test.
              They are claiming that despite the negative CFTs from Europe, two positive CFTs and one negative Western Blot obtained here in US are sufficient to determine he will not be allowed entry in the US and to refuse any further testing.
              Same was the case with Sagacious (2 positive CFTs-similar tider level shared by both horses) and one negative Western Blot.
              The case went to court and Sagacious was allowed re-entry into the US after two negative western blots and two positive CFTs. They needed a court order to obtain the additional western blot because quarantine facility refused further testing. The case went to Washington.
              We have same team involved and are starting the process to do the same.

              Comment


              • #8
                Wow, AppaloosaDressage . . . {{{hugs}}} for you. What a horrible situation to be in. Sounds like you have an awesome team in your corner. Wishing the best outcome for you and your new horse.
                ~~ How do you catch a loose horse? Make a noise like a carrot! - British Cavalry joke ~~

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm sorry this is happening to you, and as someone who knows NOTHING about importing horses, I don't understand why they won't retest. Is it general laziness, a stubborn attitude...? I'd gladly sign a petition to get this horse retested.

                  I would like to point out however, and I hope this doesn't make anyone too mad, as a scientist (BS biochemistry and almost done with PhD in biomedical science) who eat sleep and breathes biomedical science....western blots are ROUTINELY inaccurate and difficult to interupt. I quite literally watched a senior lab mate run about 20 western blots with the same sample and get different results. The point, is that with this type of assay, it needs to be repeated and I would never trust just one run of the horse's sample. I understand why the authorities dont trust one negative western with such an infection disease.

                  still don't understand why they won't retest though.....

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    I am sorry for the struggles you are going through.

                    Your facebook post is misleading. The Western Blot is NOT a reliable test, whereas the other test is accepted to be highly accurate, particularly in healthy horses. I also think Glanders is a bacterial infection, so if your horse has a bacterial infection, could it not be additional evidence to support possible glanders? (or did they identify the specific bacteria?)

                    I am surprised the other horse was allowed in with the Western Blot test as it's defense.

                    I hope your horse is indeed healthy, and able to be imported. it is unfortunate that Germany has had Glanders reintroduced, and I appreciate that they are trying to prevent that happening here, but a better process needs to be in place.
                    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post
                      I don't know if linking directly to a Go Fund Me is against COTH rules...
                      A Go Fund Me link, if the link is not for a non-profit is not allowed in the rules.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CHT View Post

                        I am sorry for the struggles you are going through.

                        Your facebook post is misleading. The Western Blot is NOT a reliable test, whereas the other test is accepted to be highly accurate, particularly in healthy horses. I also think Glanders is a bacterial infection, so if your horse has a bacterial infection, could it not be additional evidence to support possible glanders? (or did they identify the specific bacteria?)

                        I am surprised the other horse was allowed in with the Western Blot test as it's defense.

                        I hope your horse is indeed healthy, and able to be imported. it is unfortunate that Germany has had Glanders reintroduced, and I appreciate that they are trying to prevent that happening here, but a better process needs to be in place.
                        Lawyers and internist are telling us the western blot is most reliable for identifying false positives on CFT. Literally within 30 seconds of being on the phone with Several vets and lawyers they say “CFT is a terrible test.” Or “CFT has history of being very unreliable.” Or something to that effect. I’ve heard ELISA test also trumps CFT and am trying to get Roo tested with this. All data I have found online states CFT is notorious for inaccuracies, including the COTH article from when Sagacious went through this in 2017.
                        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-glanders-test

                        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-glanders-test

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

                          A Go Fund Me link, if the link is not for a non-profit is not allowed in the rules.
                          I’ll remove it

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AppaloosaDressage View Post

                            Lawyers and internist are telling us the western blot is most reliable for identifying false positives on CFT. Literally within 30 seconds of being on the phone with Several vets and lawyers they say “CFT is a terrible test.” Or “CFT has history of being very unreliable.” Or something to that effect. I’ve heard ELISA test also trumps CFT and am trying to get Roo tested with this. All data I have found online states CFT is notorious for inaccuracies, including the COTH article from when Sagacious went through this in 2017.
                            http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-glanders-test

                            http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-glanders-test
                            I would prefer an ELISA to a western, if they could do that I don't see why they doesn't besides maybe cost and ineffective lab turn around. I would be wary to take any scientific advice from a lawyer unless they also trained as a scientist, which some definitely do. They must have a reason for using these test, even if it's such a reason as finacially cheaper. Which I'm not saying is good.

                            I just wanted to point out that a western is never 100 percent, as your Facebook post says, that's misleading. To be honest, as much as this is heartbreaking and financial a mess for all involved, I don't blame the authorities for not trusting it and trying to keep our country free of this disease. I hope it works out for you and your horse and you get your further testing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Westerns can be unreliable, but it depends on the specific antibody and assay. If this is a standard, well-validated detection method run by a reliable lab one can't just categorically say a Western is less reliable that CFT.

                              That said, CFT itself seems like a somewhat outdated technique and I'm surprised it hasn't been replaced as the initial screening method by ELISA or PCR.

                              I had a horse test strongly positive for Lyme with ELISA and negative using the "go to" Cornell PCR (which I think screens for 3 different antigens). I wanted to run a Western (which was suggested by the Dr at Cornell who developed their assay) mostly because as a scientist I was curious. But my vet would have had to come out and draw more blood, so since he was symptomatic I just treated.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                What a sad situation for all involved (especially the poor horse!). It makes me wonder - should these health tests occur BEFORE the horse is shipped to the US? Of course, they would occur again once in quarantine here, but couldn't that avoid shipping a horse across the pond that has a potential health issue?

                                I certainly hope this story has a positive ending - keep us updated!

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                  What a sad situation for all involved (especially the poor horse!). It makes me wonder - should these health tests occur BEFORE the horse is shipped to the US? Of course, they would occur again once in quarantine here, but couldn't that avoid shipping a horse across the pond that has a potential health issue?

                                  I certainly hope this story has a positive ending - keep us updated!
                                  He tested negative on CFT in Germany before he boarded the plane.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Such an upsetting situation for the OP; can't imagine how difficult this must be. The FB page has a zillion comments and responses, but the one that caught my eye is that if they choose to send him back to Europe, which they can do, that the state vet in Germany would also consider euthanizing. So hoping this all works out...

                                    Comment

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