Puppies with Giardia - I'm the breeder, now what to do...

[butlerfamilyzoo]

All 4 of my pups that got sick were CONFIRMED with giardia not by fecals, but by the giardia specific lab test from different vets in NC, NY, and SC - so none of these vets conspired together and said, hey, we'll lie and call this giardia when it's really some deathly disease the breeder unloaded on this buyer. All were given the same medications for GIARDIA and have recovered. What these last two also came down with, i dont know because no tests were done on them for that vet visit and i have no idea what type of environment they've been in or come in contact with, they were just hit up with an assortment of meds/food/fluids to hopefully hit the probables.

The fact that the pups bounced back the very next day to "normal" according to their owner, really makes me think, and after talking with my vet today too to get info for my lawyer, that the pups came in contact with something toxic that caused more of a gastrointestinal issue and the fluids and anti-vomit shot pepped them back to normal.

Frankly, Wendy, your idea of a good breeder sounds great to me, but i dont know a single pet buyer that would buy a pup under those circumstances, even if it were given away, nor would i guarantee a dog against hip displasia for life when i breed working dogs that can get injuries to cause it.

I do not have a breed that leans towards aggression unless someone beat on it and made it that way, that is not a concern for my breeding program. Our genetic issues are hips and eyes and i stay away from lines with issues while still trying to breed a conformation show dog that can also work.

There is absolutely no perfect dog, no matter how hard you try to breed for perfect.

I have never met a breeder (and i know in the hundreds of breeders having shown and purchased dogs all over the US in various breeds) that would offer the guarantee you mention. I think they would fall into fits of giggles as i just did.

If you would like to attack bad breeders, please go after those in the newspapers that sell parvo puppies, or all those shikapoopoo/chihualabroodle wacko things that were never tested for any type of genetic issues before breeding and charge higher prices than i do.

[Tom King]

As breeders, our Guarantee covers congenital illnesses or issues that need to be treated for life up to the price of the puppy. We also will buy the dog back at anytime for any reason. The puppy buyers are to have their own vet appointment as soon as they can after they get the pup home and if there are any issues (there never have been for 6 generations) we will pay for the treatment. Show/breeding dogs are $2500 and you have to be a friend of ours that we know to get one, pets are $2000.

Being a responsible breeder simply means being responsible.

We also feel the breeder is responsible to provide not only the best quality, from health tested parents, that the breeder can possibly produce, but also provide a good citizen ready to move into it's new family sleeping calmly in a crate at night and already having a good start on potty training (these are dogs that live in the house). Current 10 week old litter that just left had free run of the great room with several litter boxes available and no accidents. We developed a system that starts at 3 1/2 weeks.

We don't make any profit to amount to anything on our 3 or 4 litters a year with all the health testing and upkeep of our pack. I wouldn't dream of selling dogs for 3 to 600 bucks.

For what it's worth.
www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com

[DandyMatiz]

i would say that the vet bills are your responsibility, if they choose to return the puppies. Right now, you have no control over the puppies, and can't assess the condition. I would not be blindly paying bills for something that is not for sure a cause of exposure to something on your property, and not something that they did. If it is related to the Giardia then I'd pay, otherwise, I'd refund there money with the return of the pups.

I think the that having a "will always take back" policy is good... But I wouldn't buy back the puppies. But a "will take back to rehome" is a good idea I think...

[Tom King]

Yes our buyback clause is not simply a refund. For instance, one puppy buyer from Detroit, then a homemaker, had her husband leave her and she had to work two jobs to make payments that he walked away from. Without getting into that, to make a long story short, she no longer had time for the dog. Pam flew to Detroit, brought the now year old dog back here, took two weeks to find a new home-great home, and the original owner got the difference between the price originally paid for the pup, Pam's trip expenses, and the new sale price (now discounted some since it was no longer a new pup and needed some retraining).

The only other one was an owner that became terminally ill and we just bought that dog back for it's purchase price.

Also we feel that part of being a responsible breeder is finding only good homes for the dogs to start with and this alleviates a lot of problems with having to take dogs back.

[Tamara in TN]

For what it's worth.
www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com

oh my lord totally OT but those are adorable...and
I'm not normally a little dog lover...

Tamara in TN

[JanM]

Also, I wonder if the pups got into something in the yard that was overlooked. I had a small dog that ate berries from a Virginia Creeper (or at least that's what I thought it was and I didn't know that the creepers had berries) and got very ill from it. She basically had pancreatitis, and this was over 10 years ago when no one had warned me about berries or grape consumption. And I've also had problems with people throwing junk food over the fence when I lived there too. The neighbors had young kids that were totally unsupervised who liked to do things like toss fruit pits or cores in my yard. I finally started going outside and combing the yard for junk after the one dog fetched a totally dried out complete doughnut into the house and dropped it at my feet. And this is the time of year that some fruit might be dropping in a yard too. And some places the change in water and food might be enough to do serious upset to a young puppy. I doubt there will be a good resolution to this, because the solution of taking the pups back was rejected and paying the second vet bill seems unfair to me since there wasn't a provable diagnosis.

[vacation1]

Taking in a foster animal while you have a litter on the ground is courting trouble. I don't mean to beat up on the OP, but I think that paying for the vet treatment of sick puppies who became ill because of your decisions is NOT somehow above and beyond, and the buyers are being entirely reasonable to expect you to pay for that vet treatment. You were honest with them about the possibility, and that was great, but that didn't somehow limit your responsibility. It's very unfortunate that some got sick, and so sick, and that your husband is looking at a layoff in 4 months, but that's the risk of breeding animals. The only people who make money or break even on it are bottom-feeders.

So how long do you expect your breeder to keep paying for something you cant prove is a problem they came with?

I wouldn't expect a breeder to pay for, say, a flea dip 6 years later, or a skin infection when the puppy's 10. But according to your story, the puppies became sick within a week with an illness you know they were exposed to at your kennel, seemed to recover, then got sick again after a few days. Either it's the same thing, or it's a new problem - in which case, the giardia attack certainly helped that new problem happen as it weakened the puppies' resistance. So it's your responsibility.

These pups were not sick the minute they went home. It was 4 days later that they started having diarhea. For 4 days, they were perfectly happy, healthy puppies.

They may have looked healthy, but they obviously weren't.

This buyer did not notify me the dogs had gone to the vet until AFTER. I did not have the option to take the dogs back to my vet, which to be honest, i would have MUCH prefered so i could have monitored the situation and would have driven the 6hrs to pick them up, even if i had to rig an IV in the car and line everything with newspapers to get them there.

I'd have laughed in your face if I was the new owner and you proposed a) taking my puppy to your vet instead of the one I know and trust, and b) dragging my sick puppy 6 hours to your vet just so you could be super-sure my vet wasn't overcharging you. Really, this seems reasonable to you?

For breed/show dogs we guarantee hips for 3yrs, eyes for 2yrs. For pets, only one year on both. I have never met a pet owner that will pay the money to OFA hips... For pet pups, obviously the price is MUCH discounted and with that discount comes a guarantee that covers less. If there were to be a severe genetic issue with hips or eyes, it will show in the first year in my experience.

I'm not sure I understand this logic; surely even a pet owner who doesn't want to pay to OFA hips will notice if their 2-year-old dog develops problems climbing stairs, running or walking? Even pet-quality dogs need functional hips. Since you say you keep nearly all the show-quality pups you produce, your limitation on the guarantee for all the pups you sell basically makes your guarantee virtually cost-free for you.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Tom - GORGEOUS dogs. I could not charge your prices, i breed aussies, nothing quite so rare and showey as your breed. I have to "compete" against the backyard breeder down the road that sells aussies for $250... To sell my pet pups, i have to stay competitive or i would still have them all. I have let a couple "mismark" pups (pups with too much white for the breed standard) go for $300, my bottom dollar, due to them simply being very oddly marked that only a unique owner could love... To put it lovingly... Sometimes i wonder why i'm not breeding Goldens or GSDs that i dont have to worry about what kind of markings i might get. Otherwise, my starting price is $600 for a pet pup (usually being the odder marked tri) and go up to $1000. This is competive for a pet pup of my breed, if not on the high side for the better breeders out there.

It is in our guarantee to ALWAYS take a puppy back and we MUST be notified if a dog is placed elsewhere, or is being sold. I have bought a couple dogs back when situations needed it. I also have in my contract that if the dog is found to be in a poor situation (neglect, abuse, etc) that we can take back the puppy at any time. My contract is four pages long and has always served me well until this.

The dog owner wishes to no longer speak to us due to her "disapointment." Which greatly upsets me as i will probably never get to see how these dogs grow up.

As a side note, this owner has 3 kids under the age of 8, those puppies probably had a good lot of stuff to get into and get sick from. But we'll never know what happened for the second vet visit.

[Bluey]

Tom - GORGEOUS dogs. I could not charge your prices, i breed aussies, nothing quite so rare and showey as your breed. I have to "compete" against the backyard breeder down the road that sells aussies for $250... To sell my pet pups, i have to stay competitive or i would still have them all. I have let a couple "mismark" pups (pups with too much white for the breed standard) go for $300, my bottom dollar, due to them simply being very oddly marked that only a unique owner could love... To put it lovingly... Sometimes i wonder why i'm not breeding Goldens or GSDs that i dont have to worry about what kind of markings i might get. Otherwise, my starting price is $600 for a pet pup (usually being the odder marked tri) and go up to $1000. This is competive for a pet pup of my breed, if not on the high side for the better breeders out there.

It is in our guarantee to ALWAYS take a puppy back and we MUST be notified if a dog is placed elsewhere, or is being sold. I have bought a couple dogs back when situations needed it. I also have in my contract that if the dog is found to be in a poor situation (neglect, abuse, etc) that we can take back the puppy at any time. My contract is four pages long and has always served me well until this.

The dog owner wishes to no longer speak to us due to her "disapointment." Which greatly upsets me as i will probably never get to see how these dogs grow up.

As a side note, this owner has 3 kids under the age of 8, those puppies probably had a good lot of stuff to get into and get sick from. But we'll never know what happened for the second vet visit.

Sounds like you sold TWO puppies to ONE household?

That is a big no-no in dog circles, because of so many possible problems from that, some that won't be obvious until later in life, if the dogs mature into dominant individuals and fights ensue, where one has to be then rehomed.

We see that in our basic dog classes to the public, where some breeder sold some unsuspecting owner two puppies and the problems they have from trying to raise two puppies at the same time.

One of them just recently, a local family with two ACDs they kept as family/yard dogs, so little training and as they became adults, they fought so bad one killed the other, for a while was just one there, now there is none, don't know what happened.

Rarely a breeder will do that, selling to another breeder, that will know to raise them independently, but families don't know any better, or don't do it right if they know.

Maybe I am reading this wrong and you didn't sell two puppies to the same people?

[butlerfamilyzoo]

But according to your story, the puppies became sick within a week with an illness you know they were exposed to at your kennel, seemed to recover, then got sick again after a few days. Either it's the same thing, or it's a new problem - in which case, the giardia attack certainly helped that new problem happen as it weakened the puppies' resistance. So it's your responsibility.

I do not think i've mentioned that the pups got sick the second time (7 days after the first) while supposedly still on Metronidizole for the Giardia. I dont know if there could have been live cycles still going on making the pups still have runny poop while on medication after 7 days. My vet thinks not, but i'm not a vet, so i dont know otherwise. From my talk with the vet today, she feels it was a toxic reaction, they got into something they shouldnt have, which caused a gastroinestinal issue that started the diarhea again and vomitting. Did the giardia already pull them down and leave them open to getting sick from something else? Sure, it's possible. And so is a new environment, and different water, and being on different food (which i was told they changed cold turkey to their food "that was better" -beniful from walmart- sigh...- and then went straight onto the medicated food, they had never had grains/glutens before leaving here), and going for walks around the block as they told me they were starting leash training around the block, they were healthy enough to be "little brats" and chew on the leash while at it.

So do you still feel the breeder is liable for a possible toxic reaction to something in the new owners home?

They may have looked healthy, but they obviously weren't.

They had seen my vet 4 times before going home, that's 4 exams and 4 fecals. If my vet cant find some serious life threatening illness in 4 visits, all i can assume is that the puppy is healthy. If your pup comes home with a roundworm, even after being dewormed as often they safely can be by my vet, would you consider it unhealthy? Because giardia is a parasite, just like roundworms, it just causes a worse case of runny poop. And it was not found in any of them (but i'll agree it's very hard to find) before they left. I disclosed the issue, i even offered to refund money if they had a problem with it, all buyers took their pups anyway.

I'd have laughed in your face if I was the new owner and you proposed a) taking my puppy to your vet instead of the one I know and trust, and b) dragging my sick puppy 6 hours to your vet just so you could be super-sure my vet wasn't overcharging you. Really, this seems reasonable to you?

I do not know where i said anywhere that i didnt want to use their vet because she's overcharging. It is high, but i paid the first bill no questions asked. I paid a good chunk of the second bill for issues related to giardia only because if "I" had my pups at my vet, i wouldnt have allowed the Cerenia shot to be given to a pup under 16 weeks of age, and i wouldnt have put them on Albon or 2 different types of medicated food... For future puppy sales, if i ever sell again after this, and frankly, i REALLY doubt it, i will require that a sick puppy be returned for full refund so that I can take care of the situation, once better, it will be offered back to that buyer if they are still interested in it. That way i can monitor it and not have to rely on an owner that i dont know if i can trust anymore.

I'm not sure I understand this logic; surely even a pet owner who doesn't want to pay to OFA hips will notice if their 2-year-old dog develops problems climbing stairs, running or walking? Even pet-quality dogs need functional hips. Since you say you keep nearly all the show-quality pups you produce, your limitation on the guarantee for all the pups you sell basically makes your guarantee virtually cost-free for you.

I guess you are right. This is the way we have sold pups for the past 8yrs. This is how all of the contracts of pups i have purchased from other reputible breeders are worded as well. I have only found a few that offer a pet pup guarantee of more than one year. Knowing the person that i am, if a pup was found with something a couple years down the road and had no reason to have it (wasnt working livestock or somewhere to get nailed out in the pasture by a horse, wasnt jumping 3ft fences, etc...), geesh, even if i knew it WAS doing those things, and it went downhill, i would cover that dog to the best of my ability because i would feel bad.

And maybe that's what makes breeding not for me anymore. I feel too bad and i suck at being mean.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Yes, it is two pups to the same family, and we did talk at length about this.

However, they are actually not from the same litter as one was a single pup from another female that disowned her at 3 weeks of age. My other momma dog adopted her until she was weaned, and she grew up with the other pups in that litter and though she has a different name on her pedigree, you will probably always find me calling her a daughter of the wrong mom.

But i did warn the buyers of the issues since they still grew up together. They told me they were experienced with it, and they used to breed (i think not now as more conversations have happened). Because they are a larger family and have an older dog (9 i think) that gave the three kids dogs of their own to work independently at their obedience group. It all truely sounded "good" before all this. I've met very different people after the fact.

[MafiaPrincess]

Prelim OFA hips are mainly so people don't 'waste' money and effort championing show stock when poor test results would mean they wouldn't be bred down the road.. They are fairly accurate but not 100%. No breeder I am close to takes prelim OFA hips as the final word on how their dogs hips are.

A one year guarantee on pet puppies is no better than a pet store. Petland had a one year health guarantee on my puppymill rescue.

Not every breeder I am close with has lifetime guarantees.. many acknowledge that environment can play a large role in health and that no matter how well put together their dogs are, that is not their fault.

Most offer 2 years minimum upwards of 5 years even on pet pups.

I like to look at entire lines of dogs health testing. Pets or not I want to see what is being thrown from that pool of genetics. Many of the top breeders I know in the show ring and sports have health testing as part of their contract in buying a puppy from their kennel.

A one year health guarantee is pretty worthless unfortunately. If the contracts you've used to create your own all have that for pet pups, maybe consider looking at dog specific and breeder specific forums and lists for help to improve yours.

[Guin]

You sold a puppy to a family with three children under the age of 8?

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt as a responsible breeder, but I am changing my opinion pretty rapidly.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

they were 6, 7, and 8 (busy family), oldest might have been 9.

You are talking to the wrong person. I grew up showing dogs in 4-H and started showing at 7... Young kids do not mean bad owners. No, i did not come from a dog loving/breeding family. I started with a mutt i rescued and it was all me, i had a "dog show mom" instead of a soccer mom.

I started the same thing with my first horse at 12. I did not come from parents that knew anything about horses. But i saved my money and bought it myself and asked all the questions, my parents did nothing. I wouldnt hesitate to sell ponies to kids either if they sound capable. And i did, i used to do hunter pony resales, and no, they didnt all go to upscale boarding facililities with big wig trainers, i sold to backyard homes and kids on the local circuit doing the best they could. My youngest client was a very professional little 6yr old that blew me away. Will never forget her.

One of the funnest/brightest girls i knew was winning belt buckles barrel racing at the age of 4, she would not let a soul care for her horse as she didnt think they did it good enough.

Kids can be awesome if you give them the opportunity. Better than adults.

[Tom King]

You sold a puppy to a family with three children under the age of 8?

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt as a responsible breeder, but I am changing my opinion pretty rapidly.

We have too. Plenty of times. We do have to meet the family and see how the children interact and see if they follow instructions. More times than not, they are quite capable and we feel that being raised with animals is one of the best things for children.

Now if they are too young to the point that they just will not leave the animal alone when they should and will continue to go after it even when told not to-like reaching under furniture even after told not too-then that family will have to wait. That's happened a few times too and most of the time they come back in a year or two.

I take it you haven't raised children of your own.

[Marshfield]

As a veterinarian and breeder, I would expect to be footing the bill. by your own admission, the puppies likely left incubating the giardia. And the giardia could very well have set them up for additional illnesses. And, veterinarian cost vary by region. What you list would be about par for my area.

[Guin]

I take it you haven't raised children of your own.

Think again. I have two children and did not get a dog until they were eight and ten. I simply think that any family with three little kids under the age of eight has NO TIME to handle the demands of a puppy as well as three little kids running around. The breeders I found wouldn't consider selling to families with children under the age of six, and I agree with that policy.

[vacation1]

So do you still feel the breeder is liable for a possible toxic reaction to something in the new owners home?

In this situation, yes. Could the puppies have picked up a rotten mouse corpse and gotten sick thereby? Sure. But come on now. That's like hearing hoofbeats and looking for zebras. Unfortunately, the situation with the foster makes it all too likely that the puppies' illness is related to your foster dog's illness. I agree with you about the Beneful - awful food. My dog projectile vomited every single time she ate it - had to throw the bag away.

For future puppy sales, if i ever sell again after this, and frankly, i REALLY doubt it, i will require that a sick puppy be returned for full refund so that I can take care of the situation, once better, it will be offered back to that buyer if they are still interested in it. That way i can monitor it and not have to rely on an owner that i dont know if i can trust anymore

I may have missed some details, but it seems as if the only reason you're distrustful of these buyers is because they've expected you to pay for a second round of vet treatments?

One of the funnest/brightest girls i knew was winning belt buckles barrel racing at the age of 4, she would not let a soul care for her horse as she didnt think they did it good enough. Kids can be awesome if you give them the opportunity. Better than adults.

They can be awesome adults eventually too, if you give them the chance to grow up

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I'm distrustful of the buyers due to conflicting stories. When they first called me after the second visit, i was told there was a bacterial infection in the intestines that was very severe and i need to make sure MY dogs were not all carying this bacteria?? I panic... Of course, who wouldnt.

Now yes, i do know that when at a vet some owners lose their brains and only listen to the words, they will get better... So perhaps they just really misunderstood.

I called her vet and then got the run down of what really was going on. And her vet could not confirm giardia, and flat out told me she thought there was more going on. She said that she asked the owners if they had taken their dogs to petsmart or around other dogs. And then told me flat out, "you cant always believe what answers you get" and she suspected parvo (which is why they ruled it out) or exposure to something toxic.

I contacted the owner back and she told me they DID test for giardia again and they were totally LOADED with it and that they sent off a test for something else that they thought they were infested with too... Which is when i asked her to send me the bill so i could review it with my vet, and i told her i would cover whatever is giardia related.

I get the bill, no fecal was done, no giardia test was done, no tests were sent off, the only test there was Parvo that the owner didnt even tell me was done, but i knew from the vet call.

I've refunded her for what i feel we are liable for, and it was not a decision lightly made, without knowing more and the pups making a miraculous recovery overnight with no issues since (this happening 4 days ago)... I've offered to pay the bill in full and refund the purchase price of the pups if she will return them, she wont, and that's ok. She has said she will not talk with me further, and that is ok too.

Again, her vet is pricey, but that is not the issue. The issue is if it is still giardia or not, because nothing was proven, i've done what sits best on my shoulders with this situation.

It is all done now. I will respect her wish to not contact her.

[Moderator 1]

As this thread isn't horse- or really farm-related and the OP has already gotten lots of feedback, we're going to close the thread.

Thanks!
Mod 1