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Puppies with Giardia - I'm the breeder, now what to do...

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Guin- I have to laugh because these pups went to the vet FOUR times before they went to their new home! That's how insane i am about being sure i sell a healthy puppy. NONE of my dogs/puppies have ever shown any giardia symptoms or had it show on a fecal here. To be totally honest, this is my first experience with it personally. My vet thinks i'm crazy, but of course, she doesnt mind my money...

    These pups were not sick the minute they went home. It was 4 days later that they started having diarhea. For 4 days, they were perfectly happy, healthy puppies. I have record of her vet telling her that aside from the giardia, they are perfectly healthy puppies in the buyers own email. At that time, all they were showing was runny poop and since i had told the owners that it could be a possibility, they knew to take them in to get checked (which they should have anyway per my contract to get them checked in 3 business days which most people never do, sigh...)

    We bleach our kennels once a week, they are power washed daily, food/water bowls are bleached daily. All health clearances and genetic testing i can do are done on my breeding dogs. I strive to be the epitime of a "good breeder."

    Yes, the world might lose this good breeder after this year. Between vet bills/weird buyers this year and my husband's looming job loss (which is forcing me to put 4 of my young girls up for sale, two of which i just got their titles on this year... BIG SIGH!) i might not make it to next year before i'm fixing dogs!
    Your Horse's Home On The Road!
    www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      A word to puppy buyers, if you buy a pup and it came with Parvo, do not assume the breeder is not a good one. Parvo can spread so rapidly, even from an infected dog around the block that never came in contact with your dogs. Birds spread it on their feet/beaks getting bugs off poop from one yard and hopping into the next. I lost one of my best pups to parvo because a dog 6 houses down got it, and it lives on your property for months and months.

      My GSD breeder friend lost a whole litter to it one year, even with agressive treatment. She has no idea where it came from. She's one of the best breeders i know.

      Giardia is worse than worms when it comes to parasites in my oppinion. But that doesnt mean that the best breeder in the world cant get it at their property. Even if we kept our dogs shut in sterile concrete kennels 24x7, they can still get parasites. It's impossible to be THAT GOOD of a breeder. Period. That is why we de-worm so often and do vet checks before they leave with fecals, but something like giardia and coccidea do not show in fecals probably 9 times out of 10, just depends on if the darn things are shedding the moment of that fecal according to their life cycles.
      Your Horse's Home On The Road!
      www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

      Comment


      • #23
        As a puppy buyer I would not expect you to pay for vet bills. when I take a new puppy for a vet check it I wouldn't expect the breeder to pay if something was wrong. If the had something so wrong that it was going to die I would probably take it back to the breeder.

        As a breeder I would hope that either the new owners would take responsibility for the new puppy(s) or return it if they couldn't.

        good luck!!

        Comment


        • #24
          If the problem was something that clearly the breeder should have known about and dealt with, then I'd expect the breeder to cover the cost. (Or take the dog back, refund my money, and then perhaps I could repurchase the dog once the health problem was resolved, if that was what the breeder wanted to do to have maximum control over the situation.)

          An example of this would be the older dog I adopted from a rescue who had a broken canine and seriously needed dental work to deal with it. (It was getting infected.) Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't even MENTION it when I adopted him. (As a rescue, I'm fine with the idea they maybe simply couldn't afford the cost of dental care, but in that case I think they should have disclosed it when I expressed interest in the dog, and perhaps reduced their adoption fee accordingly.)

          If the problem was just One Of Those Things that the pup could have picked up anywhere, well. Who knows how or when the pup got sick? I'd just get the pup treated and that'd be that.

          An example of this would be pup comes home, starts switching over to different food, starts having stomach troubles. Maybe it's the food or water change, maybe not. Take pup to the vet, get it treated. (Probably also switch it back to the original diet until it's over being ill, if possible.)

          Comment


          • #25
            Well, in my case, it did originate at the breeder's since she admitted that my chosen pup was sick already! Somehow, she had switched puppies and bitches (another red flag)... anyway, there seemed to be a lot of excuses going around.

            As I said, apart from parvo at the beginning, this dog lived 12 very healthy years, dying 12 years to the day I had picked him up!

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Well i had a conversation with my puppy buyer who is ticked and wants a full refund.

              After much thought, i refunded for the metronidizole (a giardia medication) and paid half of her fees for the exam, both medicated foods, and fluids.

              I did not cover the Albon (not giardia medication), parvo test, or cerenia (anti-vomit injection).

              This buyer did not notify me the dogs had gone to the vet until AFTER. I did not have the option to take the dogs back to my vet, which to be honest, i would have MUCH prefered so i could have monitored the situation and would have driven the 6hrs to pick them up, even if i had to rig an IV in the car and line everything with newspapers to get them there.
              Your Horse's Home On The Road!
              www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

              Comment


              • #27
                When I lived in Colorado my new vet was amazed that the previous vet had run a Giardia test and treated my dog for this, because he only treated it when there were symptoms of illness (if you don't know what they are then you don't want to know-they're icky) because Giardia is so prevalent in the area and my dog had no symptoms. I got my second dog from the humane society and he was full of hookworms that I had to treat, and that was truly yucky.
                You can't fix stupid-Ron White

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  JanM - you are correct, giardia is probably present in way more dogs than we know, but unless it shows in the fecals, we dont know, and if they dont show any symptoms (which is really just disgusting poop with possibly mucas/blood in it, which for pups, they can dehydrate so quickly, it can be lethal), you may never know.

                  Supposedly this year due to our damp weather here in GA, giardia has been a big issue.
                  Your Horse's Home On The Road!
                  www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Guin View Post
                    The reason for buying from a reputable breeder is the assurance you are getting a sound, healthy dog.
                    "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      giardia is everywhere is the environment and one of those things that, although annoying to deal with, is minor and no way would I expect my breeder to pay for it.

                      Since stress can trigger it, and moving puppy to a new home is stressful, I'd consider it a nuisance.

                      I'm shocked that a client wants you to refund the purchase price. Personally, I'd take back the puppy instead of giving a refund as I'd be nervous about an owner having that lack of knowledge having one of my dogs.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I am a buyer not a breeder, but yes, if the puppy was infected at the time that I bought it, I would expect the breeder to pay the bills.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by kdow View Post
                          An example of this would be the older dog I adopted from a rescue who had a broken canine and seriously needed dental work to deal with it. (It was getting infected.) Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't even MENTION it when I adopted him. (As a rescue, I'm fine with the idea they maybe simply couldn't afford the cost of dental care, but in that case I think they should have disclosed it when I expressed interest in the dog, and perhaps reduced their adoption fee accordingly.)
                          I have adopted many dogs from rescue. I have also fostered many dogs for various rescues when I lived out west. My most recent acquisition was a "middle" aged female spayed, healthy, blah blah blah. I took her to the vet. The vet thought she was closer to 8 yrs, not 5 like I was told. The vet said that her teeth needed to be done and that her ears were badly infected. I was told she was perfectly healthy other than being fat. LOL....

                          I don't hold it against the rescue for not disclosing it to me. I took her to the vet to get her checked out.....I could have taken her back to the rescue or I could deal with it. I chose to keep her.

                          It is entirely possible that the rescue didn't know about the issue. If you look at one of our dogs, you wouldn't notice he is missing his canine. We don't know when it came it.....years ago I guess.

                          OP, quit being nice on this. You disclosed the issue. The buyer took the pups to the vet....they were cleared by vet as healthy. They bought the pups from you knowing there was a chance they would get sick....they did, 4 days later. They changed the pups water, food, and environemnt. That alone, would have been enough to send the pups over the edge. Tell them no more. You have done what you will do.

                          Good Luck.
                          Life is too short to argue with a mare! Just don't engage! It is much easier that way!

                          Have fun, be safe, and let the mare think it is her idea!

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            In case you are unaware, only guaranteeing hips for a year is not the mark of a good breeder. Since you cannot OFA hips until 24 months minimum your 'guarantee' isn't worth much unfortunately.

                            Sorry, Ive never had giardia.. kudos for feeding raw, we feed raw and breed jrts.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              For breed/show dogs we guarantee hips for 3yrs, eyes for 2yrs. For pets, only one year on both. I have never met a pet owner that will pay the money to OFA hips. I RARELY ever sell a pup to a breeding home, because if it's that nice, i usually keep it. I can only think of two pups i let go to breeders over 8yrs of breeding.

                              Those two pups sold for 2k each.

                              For pet pups, obviously the price is MUCH discounted and with that discount comes a guarantee that covers less. If there were to be a severe genetic issue with hips or eyes, it will show in the first year in my experience. This is why we test our adults and make sure we breed nothing less than Good OFA ratings and with clear lenses to help insure our pups wont have a problem, sure, that's not 100% sure puppies wont have a problem, but we do our best.
                              Your Horse's Home On The Road!
                              www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by mustangtrailrider View Post
                                It is entirely possible that the rescue didn't know about the issue. If you look at one of our dogs, you wouldn't notice he is missing his canine. We don't know when it came it.....years ago I guess.
                                Part of the issue is that they'd actually had him anesthetized to remove a skin tag sort of thing he had on the inside of one back leg just a couple of days before I adopted him, and you could tell by his breath that something wasn't great in there. (Though it did take me a couple of days to actually notice his canine was broken, and longer than that to get a good look at it and realize it needed to come out.)

                                At the very least I would have expected them to have a look while he was already under and they could take the chance to check things out. As it was he had to be anesthetized twice and since every GA has some risk to it, well, that's what bugs me most.

                                (I should add that they did basically make good - they don't usually do dental work in their vet clinic, just routine stuff and spay/neuter, but they agreed to check him out and their vet handled him so much better than any of the others we'd gotten quotes from that I had them remove the tooth and check the others, and they agreed to do it for me. So the experience was much less stressful for him than it could have been, and his teeth got all fixed up. )

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  ButlerFamilyZoo-what the vet actually said was that since most dogs were carriers and not really affected by giardia that most vets didn't even run the test on the dogs because they were almost universally carriers. And that the owners brought the dogs in for treatment when the owner caught giardia with all of the relevant and disgusting symptoms.

                                  And my new vet (who was a very experienced vet) implied that he thought that treating an asymptomatic dog was basically a money-maker for the vet practice, and my previous experience with them bore that out.

                                  And in the case of the original pups-I wonder what little goodies they were fed between appointments. At that age they might be much more susceptible to the feeding of something high fat, or something in a small quantity that would make them sick and look like the return of giardia when it might be a gastrointestinal upset instead. I find it suspicious that both dogs ended up with the same recurrence of the problem. Maybe the abrupt change in food from the vets back to the new home food triggered it.
                                  You can't fix stupid-Ron White

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    JanM- you bring up a good point actually. If i'm so "infested" with it as this buyer wants to make out, why have i not gotten it? I have a 19 month old son that lives in the dog yard and thinks he's part dog... Why has he not gotten it? And i think it's stuff we would notice! (Where's the EWWW smiley when you need one?)

                                    My cat sure hasnt gotten it, wish he would, he's had chronic constipation issues the past two years that we havent gotten situated correctly yet.

                                    My ferret has been perfectly normal too. Both of which play with the dogs when they come indoors (which is daily for most of them).

                                    The whole thing would be less frustrating if something here showed symptoms. But no, it's got to be puppies after they leave and go to their new homes.

                                    The "newest" argument is that i sold her puppies so sick that she didnt realize how sick they were until they are now better and shows her that they were totally not alright the first 4 days they were there...

                                    (What puppy is happy go lucky, playing, and completely "normal" the first 4 days in a new home?)

                                    I've decided i cant please everone and have a call in to my lawyer in case this lady tries to do any real damage. I am sticking to my guns and only refunding what i have already done and no more. I did offer to refund it all and purchase price of pups if she will return them to me, she refused. Said it would make her kids too upset.
                                    Your Horse's Home On The Road!
                                    www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Aven View Post
                                      In case you are unaware, only guaranteeing hips for a year is not the mark of a good breeder. Since you cannot OFA hips until 24 months minimum your 'guarantee' isn't worth much unfortunately.
                                      I was going to post the same thing.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        You can get an OFA prelim under 2yrs of age...

                                        The OFA fee chart shows fees for dogs under 24 months of age, and a fee for a "FOLLOW UP" after 24 months. From my experience, you can OFA a dog of any age, you just can not get a permanent rating until 2yrs of age, the only reason to have a permanent rating would be for breeding purposes.

                                        http://www.offa.org/fees.html

                                        I've OFA'd a 12 month dog without issue, i dont even believe i was asked the age. If you'll pay, they'll do anything.
                                        Last edited by butlerfamilyzoo; Jun. 30, 2010, 02:15 PM. Reason: adding more info
                                        Your Horse's Home On The Road!
                                        www.KaydanFarmsEquineTransport.com

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          good breeders guarantee their dogs FOR LIFE and insist upon OFA's and other breed-specific health tests being done- due to the complexity of the genetics of some of these conditions, especially hip dysplasia, the only way the breeder can be sure the line is healthy is to have as many of the offspring screened as possible. If your stud dog has "good" OFA hips but seems to throw some pups with bad hips, you owe it to everyone to find out and then neuter the stud as soon as possible. OR let's say your bitch has a wonderful temperament, but you find out she's producing 50% pups with reactive/aggressive problems; only way to find out the bitch is carrying bad genes is to keep in contact with the pup buyers, ask the hard questions, and then do the responsible thing by spaying the bitch and demanding that all the pup buyers neuter her offspring.

                                          anyway, correct me if I got the original story wrong: breeder gets a foster pup in briefly, and exposes his litter to the foster. The foster proceeds to get VERY ill. The breeder's litter goes to their new homes, and then many? of the litter come down with a serious illness (which, frankly, doesn't sound AT ALL like giardia to me, and yes, I had a pup that was troubled by it). I'd say that in this particular situation the pups were all clearly exposed to some nasty illness before being sold and therefore the breeder is entirely liable.

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