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Puppy problems, before we even have the puppy!

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    The breeder does not know very much about hunting. Since my husband will be training and hunting this dog himself he is going to choose. If the dog was just going to be a companion then I'm all for the breeder picking. Well in that case we would get a dog from the shelter. If my husband wanted a dog that showed hunting ability and was going to ship it off to a trainer then once again breeder go ahead and pick the dog. My husband will be training this dog himself like he has done with his dogs in the past. He wants to pick, if the breeder has a problem with that then they should tell us and then we find another breeder.
    CRAYOLA Posse: PLUM

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
      I wonder, how many breeds does your breeder sell?
      How many breeding dogs do they have?

      With such a breed with large litters, all good breeders I know hardly have more than one a year, definitively not two that close.
      Then, maybe this time it just worked like this.
      Well, that is another thing that has started to concern me a little bit. They seem to have atleast one other breed. They don't hunt (which seems like it might be a problem, but our past Chessies have been from nonhunting homes and they have been great hunters). Another reason husband wants to pick, he knows what to look for and has had great success in the past picking.
      Around here Labs are the most popular hunters, you can pick one up anywhere. Our options seem to be limited with this breed, we are going to drive 6 hours to pick it up. We talked to a hunter in that area and the second litter's dam is one of his dog's puppies. He is a hunter who hunts with his dogs and that is another reason we like the second litter. Hubby emailed them this morning to tell them about switching the deposit, so we will see....
      CRAYOLA Posse: PLUM

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      • #23
        It's worrisome that they have another litter coming so quickly. Have you been to their kennels? Met their dogs? Seen their operation? What titles do their dogs hold?

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Yes I agree.
          We haven't been to the kennels, but were planning on going this weekend. That might change with the change in the litters. The parents do not hold any titles.
          I'm starting to really worry about this now...
          Okay, so what would be the best way to go about finding a puppy? The parent's are AKC, they have good hunting pedigrees.
          CRAYOLA Posse: PLUM

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          • #25
            Just throwing in my two cents.

            It wouldn't bother me that the breeder decided to keep a pup. It WOULD bother me that someone else would get to pick first after I'd been told that I would have that.

            Now as to the breeder picking a puppy for me....NEVER. I would not buy a puppy that I didn't chose myself. When I get a pup I just KNOW which one is mine and I've never been wrong.

            Shelter dogs...My last three have been shelter dogs and I couldn't be more delighted with them. We have a county shelter that is A PLUS and I'm really really proud of the shelter and the workers there along with the Vets who either donate or give a huge discount for their work.

            There are lots of dogs and puppies in shelters who are every bit as worthy as the ch. whatever. By looking down on the shelter dog you may be passing by the best and most loyal friend you could have. Yes, the shelters often have purebred, too, if that's your thing.

            pj, proud owner of shelter dogs, not purebred but who the heck cares!
            You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

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            • #26
              We talked to a hunter in that area and the second litter's dam is one of his dog's puppies.
              So why not buy one of that hunter's puppies???

              I have had 3 purebred dogs and all the rest are/have been mutts. Some of the mutts have had incredible natural instincts for some task, some are 'just' dogs. I love them all. I do adopt shelter dogs, but I have no problem with someone buying a 'purpose bred' dog.

              To me, it's kind of like with horses. WB's are bred for dressage. Maybe some QH's and ASB's and Morgans can do it, and maybe they can get to GP, but they're usually 'nice' but not really competitive when you get to the upper levels. If you're never going to the upper levels, buy and ride what you enjoy. If you're really serious about the upper levels, especially International competition, only the 'real thing' will do - and even there you have to make a wise choice, have a lot of money, a bit of luck and good contacts - but you have a better chance by starting with an animal that is bred for the purpose.

              You wouldn't use a setter for a retriever without doing an awful lot of extra training and frustrating the dog and yourself in the process.
              Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
              Now apparently completely invisible!

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              • #27
                No titles on parents?

                Originally posted by Maybeapril View Post
                Yes I agree.
                We haven't been to the kennels, but were planning on going this weekend. That might change with the change in the litters. The parents do not hold any titles.
                I'm starting to really worry about this now...
                Okay, so what would be the best way to go about finding a puppy? The parent's are AKC, they have good hunting pedigrees.
                This is a serious red flag. Respectable breeders might argue about whether conformation titles or performance titles are more important but most responsible breed fanciers believe in titling dogs that are going to be bred. Many believe in titles on both ends of the dog, both performance and conformation titles.

                I think you need to research further. Try going through the Chesapeak Bay Retriever Club of America for breeder referrals, just google them. This is a good place to start. Then see what kind of titleing is available and what health testing is expected. If you tell a good breeder that you are looking for in a performance prospect, they will be evaluating the litter and determining which would be better for performance, pets or conformation.

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                • #28
                  To comment on the thing about more than one breed. A reasonable number of people who aren't millers or lousy breeders will branch out into a second breed at some point. Not everyone, but it's not neccessarily a bad sign if the breeder has 2 breeds. More than 2 breeds, though, would be a bad sign. Labs and JRTs, okay. Labs, JRTs, Pugs and Gordon Setters, no.

                  Originally posted by MrWinston View Post
                  This is a serious red flag. Respectable breeders might argue about whether conformation titles or performance titles are more important but most responsible breed fanciers believe in titling dogs that are going to be bred. Many believe in titles on both ends of the dog, both performance and conformation titles. I think you need to research further. Try going through the Chesapeak Bay Retriever Club of America for breeder referrals, just google them. This is a good place to start. Then see what kind of titleing is available and what health testing is expected. If you tell a good breeder that you are looking for in a performance prospect, they will be evaluating the litter and determining which would be better for performance, pets or conformation.
                  I agree. At least one parent should be titled (and Chessies are one of the breeds where dogs still regularly manage to get both conformation and performance titles), and seeing neither parent titled would make me back away from this breeder. With a hard-to-find breed, you're going to have to establish a link with a breeder first, then get on their list for a future litter. Long process, which is one reason I've delayed getting the purebred puppy I've considered - the wait is frustrating. At least now, with email, it's easier to communicate with breeders, better than playing phone tag.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Maybeapril View Post
                    The breeder does not know very much about hunting. Since my husband will be training and hunting this dog himself he is going to choose. If the dog was just going to be a companion then I'm all for the breeder picking. Well in that case we would get a dog from the shelter. If my husband wanted a dog that showed hunting ability and was going to ship it off to a trainer then once again breeder go ahead and pick the dog. My husband will be training this dog himself like he has done with his dogs in the past. He wants to pick, if the breeder has a problem with that then they should tell us and then we find another breeder.
                    Therein lies your first major problem. There is unfortunately for many, many of the working breeds a huge difference between what you'll find at a show/companion kennel versus a hunting/performance kennel. If your husband wants a dog to go hunting with than go to a kennel with a proven track record for producing hunting dogs. I'm not sure about with the Chesapeake's but for the Labrador Retriever's I can tell instantly if it came from an AKC show kennel or hunting kennel. Same thing for GSP's. At a bare minimum you want to see an AKC Jr Hunter title and preferably a Master Hunter. There's also titles available from retriever trials.

                    That the breeder would have first pick is something that you could have safely assumed. Even if first pick from any of our litters isn't staying in our home, they're already slotted to go somewhere. What we consider first pick isn't ever available to the public. That said, pick order is so subjective. For the last litter we produced, everybody ended up getting the dog which would have been their first choice even the one who chose last. We use puppy temperment testing to help people figure out which puppy suits them. We've never had anybody who wasn't thrilled with the puppy they ended up with. What we would due in your situation is have buyer #2 pick two puppies and they'd get either their first or second choice based upon which puppy you chose.

                    With the other factors that you've shared, I would get your deposit back and walk away. As for the comment from another questioning the breeder for having two litters arrive so close together, it's not our first choice; but you just have so little control over when your bitch is ready to be bred. For us, we aim not to have puppies on the ground during bird hunting season and it's hard to doing any breeding during that period as well. So, for bird hunting dogs you may end up breeding litters close together.

                    For more on our familiy's experience with the quest for a good hunting partner follow this link
                    http://www.marshfieldkennel.com/Abou...ld_Kennel.html

                    There may or may not be a great reason for having a couple of breeds. I married a GSP breeder long after I became passionate about Pembroke Welsh Corgis. I hadn't planned to keep a bitch out of the most recent litter, but one came along who was too special not to retain for the future of the program
                    Last edited by Marshfield; Oct. 7, 2009, 08:11 PM. Reason: Additional info

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Have these people done OFA tests? Other certifications that would be important to you when buying a hunting dog? The fact that they have no hunting titles or wins on their dogs would worry me a bit. Not necessarily AKC, but something that proves their dogs have good hunitng instincts. More than the 'pick' issue. I have a friend who is a judge and has top winnning Brittanies in the field. He would tell you, make sure you have proven bloodlines for hunting no matter what.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        After reading your first post, I wasn't particularly concerned, but the more you have said the more I have changed my mind. It would be one thing if you were able to go up there and meet her, the dogs, and maybe see some of the pups they are breeding. But given the fact that its prohibitively far away, you have to rely on other factors to determine the quality of this breeder. General things to look for are dogs that are titled (either bench or field, and with chessies you can often find dogs with both). I'd want to see both parents titled, or at least one titled and one well on the way. I'd also want to see hip certification (either OFA or PennHip) and you need to learn what other screening tests are particular to chessies. Each breed is potentially prone to different genetic issues so each breed has different health screenings that are commonplace before breeding the dogs. Common issues you would see certs/current tests for are eyes, hearing, and heart. But I don't know much about CBRs so I don't know what is common for them. Titled parents with the proper screenings demonstrates that the breeder is a true advocate for the breed and is looking to improve the stock because they have a desire to only breed dogs that have demonstrated themselves to be excellent specimines of the breed and they are healthy and show know sign of common genetic issues.

                        Beyond that, I'd find a breeder you can talk to. Someone who knows about the breed and about what you want to do with the dog. Since you are going to likely have to travel a great distance for the right pup, its nice to have a breeder who can help identify what you are looking for and give you the heads up about the pups available, or even if there is a pup that matches your needs. You want a breeder that you feel confident is being perfectly honest with you and disclosing everything. At the very least, it sounds like this breeder is not going to be a person who you can have a genuine discussion about hunting dogs with. Most breeders would be very excited to help your and your husband with a dog that is going to be used as a working dog (and does he compete his dogs? Even better if he does!). Breeders of working breeds should be excited to place a dog in a good home where it can do what it was bred to. Sounds like this breeder doesn't feel that way.

                        I'd see if I could find breeders who are active in the CBR club, field trials, or are otherwise 'big' in the hunting scene and talk to lots of them! Unfortunately, since chessies are relatively rare you may not find the right breeder even within 6 hours of you - you may end up driving much further or it might be worth having to fly somewhere to get your pup. If you can find a breeder who knows how to identify the right pup for you, you may be able to have the pup shipped to you. But I'd want to trust that breeder a great deal to be able to identify the best working stock and I'd have numerous phone conversations with them about their dogs, your past dogs, what you do with them, training style, what the breeder likes to see in his stock, what his dogs do. On the bright side, because chessies are relatively rare, MOST of the stock has fairly good working instincts.

                        I recently went through the breeder search thing looking for a lab pup. While my dog isn't going to ever be a serious hunting dog, I had a long list of specific things that were important to me, and I wanted a dog that would be able to participate well in agility, rally, and maybe even some lower level field trials. I love working with the dogs and training them, I just don't have enough time to finish them to perfection!
                        http://community.webshots.com/user/Kikki500

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