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Can we talk about mange?

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  • Can we talk about mange?

    My MIL has a very lovely pair of beagles. They are AKC registered about 3 years old and they are the last of my FIL's pack. He passed away in September and his hunting dogs were sold off except for these two. They were bred and now their puppies are about 4 months old.

    One of the puppies went to a family in GA. I got a call from them today stating that they took the puppy to the vet and she has a massive bladder infection and mange. They have had this particular puppy for about 2 months now. The vet saw a bald spot on her chest and did a scrapeing and determined it to be mange and said that she (the puppy) should never be bred and her parents should never be bred again.

    I have looked over the parents and the remaining puppies and there is no sign of anything on them at all. Their coats are shiny and clean. They look fat and happy. Is mange genetic? Can there be a genetic abnormality that would predispose a certain dog to mange?

    What should I do here? The people with the puppy are not asking for anything but just the call itself bothered me for some reason. These puppies are beautiful and I will post some photos if I can.

    http://pets.webshots.com/album/57244...WPl?vhost=pets
    Last edited by Weighaton; May. 26, 2009, 06:40 PM. Reason: add photos

  • #2
    I think it depends on which type of mange, which you didn't say in your post.

    I got a beagle years ago that had a horrible case of mange, all it took was weekly trips to the vet for dips, and she was fine. The vet never said anything about not breeding her, but I wasn't going to breed her anyway.

    Here is some information on the internet:

    http://www.canismajor.com/dog/mange1.html

    http://www.mangeindogs.net/
    There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

    Comment


    • #3
      What type of mange was it?
      Demodectic mange does not cause clinical signs in healthy puppies, nor should healthy puppies get bladder infections. It is usually the result of a compromised immune system, which at an early age, could be a sign of something serious (and possibly inherited). I can't say more than that without seeing the animal, but it is a suspicious scenario.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I don't know what kind of mange it was and I don't know enough about it to have even asked. I did email her and asked her some additional questions. I don't think that they were implying that the bladder infection was linked to the mange. They took her to the vet for the bladder infection, which the vet said was the worst possible, and he discovered the mange.

        My concern is for the remaining adult dogs and two puppies. If the adults are genetically flawed I am going to encourage my MIL to fix them. The problem is that they are both stellar rabbit dogs, completely deer-proof. But again, if there is something wrong with them that shouldn't even matter.

        Is there a test for something like this? Like I said the dogs do not have any signs of mange. Their coats are gorgeous.

        Comment


        • #5
          Most dogs, particularly puppies, harbor demodectic mange but their immune systems are able to fight it off so it doesn't become a problem. Skin scrapings (deep ones) are needed to see the mites. The healthy ones probably don't have the mites as a problem or even enough of them to see if you do a skin scraping.

          The fact that a bladder infection in a puppy has been described by the vet as the "worst possible" is really worrying. Healthy animals have immune systems in place to prevent UTIs, and especially puppies, should have uncomplicated clavamox-responsive UTIs that are mild, if they get them at all.

          It sounds like there is more going on in this puppy than just mange and a UTI. These problems are not primary pathogens that cause disease; they are secondary to an underying problem. They're basically red flags that there is more under the surface. I can't say for sure if the adults are genetically flawed or not without knowing exactly what is wrong with this puppy.

          I hope the puppy does well, though. Please keep us updated!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            I heard back from the new owner and she said that she was told that it was demodectic (sp?) mange. The vet told her that he rates UTIs in levels of 1 through 4 with 4 being the worst. He rated this little puppy as a 4.

            I am concerned for the puppy but I know she is with a great family who will take good care of her. But again, I wonder if the parents are flawed. Or maybe one of the pair?

            I will update as things progress.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Of course, I am reading like crazy on all of this. One article says that the mites are often on the dogs in manageable amounts and as the immune systems matures the dog can deal with it. But in cases of malnutrition and sometimes stress the mites multiply out of control.

              Could the stress of the new environment be triggering this?

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes, demodectic mange used to kill dogs, because it is a sign of a bad immune system.
                We had a dobie with it, that we finally had to euthanize and it was terrible.
                There were five in the litter and two had it, one ours and both died.
                The vets at that time also told us to notify the breeders and that they should consider not breeding the parents again and the breeders quit using those dogs to breed from.

                We treated with sulfur baths and creams and all that we had in those days, hoping the immune system would mature and kick on, but it was a losing battle.

                Several years later, we had a min pin and that one also had demodectic mange, but by then there were the Mitaban dips and, after four of them, we started getting clean scrapings and she cleared and was fine the rest of her life.

                Today, you can use ivermectin and it is not much of a problem, but you still should not breed the parents again, or you may keep having a few affected puppies and that is not fair to the puppies and their owners.
                We have enough dogs around today that, if we know of a problem, even a rather smaller one, we should just not bred those parents again.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Weighaton View Post
                  Of course, I am reading like crazy on all of this. One article says that the mites are often on the dogs in manageable amounts and as the immune systems matures the dog can deal with it. But in cases of malnutrition and sometimes stress the mites multiply out of control.

                  Could the stress of the new environment be triggering this?
                  As I said before, this is likely NOT a simple case of stress.
                  A puppy should NOT have a horrible UTI AND a case of demodectic mange. That just shouts "bad immune system" or "immunosuppression!"
                  I really think it sounds like there is more going on than just stress, although, it could be possible. But based on the severity of the UTI combined with the mites, it's probably something underlying.

                  There is no way of knowing whether the parents should be bred again or not without knowing the final diagnosis of the puppy. It depends on whether the final diagnosis is a known heritable disease or not. But, I would strongly advise against breeding the parents again. The world does not need more inferior dogs.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Bluey, I completely agree about the breeding of the parents if they are the problem. And everything I am reading is pointing to that. But how do you know if it is the male or female or both? This was their first litter and as I said these are very nice dogs.

                    It is just a bad situation all around. The last of the pack, MIL is very attached. She is not the most knowledgeable person about the dogs and their breeding but her husband was. I started to talk to her tonight about the possibility of fixing both of them and she brought up their AKC papers. She said that they would lose their registration. I felt bad that she doesn't even understand that much of it. I told her they are registered for life but the papers really don't matter if they are fixed. These are not show dogs. They are hunters. I do not ever see her compaigning them in any sort of field trials so it is really a mute point.
                    She is 71 years old but as tough and stubborn as an ox. The dogs are really beautiful but I mean really? Hunting dogs in their prime - doing nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Pancakes - I hear you. I am just trying to process everything and figure out a game plan here. I would prefer that all of the dogs be fixed because the backyard breeders and puppy mills are out of control.

                      But I have the added problem of a recently widowed MIL who in her mind has a plan for these dogs. She is not someone that will not listen to reason but I have to go about it in the right way.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Weighaton View Post
                        Bluey, I completely agree about the breeding of the parents if they are the problem. And everything I am reading is pointing to that. But how do you know if it is the male or female or both? This was their first litter and as I said these are very nice dogs.

                        It is just a bad situation all around. The last of the pack, MIL is very attached. She is not the most knowledgeable person about the dogs and their breeding but her husband was. I started to talk to her tonight about the possibility of fixing both of them and she brought up their AKC papers. She said that they would lose their registration. I felt bad that she doesn't even understand that much of it. I told her they are registered for life but the papers really don't matter if they are fixed. These are not show dogs. They are hunters. I do not ever see her compaigning them in any sort of field trials so it is really a mute point.
                        She is 71 years old but as tough and stubborn as an ox. The dogs are really beautiful but I mean really? Hunting dogs in their prime - doing nothing.
                        You may google for pictures of dogs with demodectic mange, like our dobie had, wrinkled, sore skin, hairless in many places, especially in the face and feet, wearing a T-shirt to keep it as clean as possible, fighting bacterial infections all the time, the poor dog very smelly and with sores, horrible, horrible.

                        Mitaban dips were very poisonous and done at the vets, with many precautions and were known to in some puppies change their disposition, making them less happy, more brooding.

                        Today, with ivermectin, you can keep the mites under control, but not always either and even then, why put the puppies and new owners thru that misery?
                        Surely she will understand that the affected dogs and their families should be taken into consideration, above her fixation with trying to breed, especially in a world killing dogs every day by the millions?

                        Here is a page for you:

                        http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

                        ...and a dobie:

                        http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/demodex1.jpg

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I found this one to be the most informative on whether or not you should consider to breed the mother:

                          http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/dem.html

                          Interesting topic, even for those of us that don't breed dogs.
                          There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Thanks for the links to those articles. They were very good. I am going to be a pro on this in no time.

                            All of the comments are very much appreciated.

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