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Vets and drug dispensing

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  • Vets and drug dispensing

    I know the other thread got pulled because it drifted way OT, but here's the response I got from the AAHA. Emphasis mine. An actual equine related topic - should our vets be quite so easy going about letting us have meds?

    What's in your fridge or in your cabinet? I always have ACE, banamine and bute. I've had penicillin when necessary. I don't do my own vaccinations.

    Is your vet comfortable giving out meds to anyone, or are they pretty vigilant about who they feel is competent in handling them?

    Thank you for writing us at the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA). The article in question is misleading. We had received a message about unconfirmed case regarding a couple of teenagers in Wisconsin from the American Veterinary Medical Association. The AVMA is currently investigating this report. Whether or not these rumors prove true, this situation underscores the need for veterinarians to remain vigilant about storing, distributing, prescribing and using veterinary products that can pose human health risks. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you for your time and have a great day!
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

  • #2
    Is this about the use of Estrumate? We got a memo at the clinic from SP a few weeks back w/ a "heads up".

    Comment


    • #3
      I won't disclose what's in my fridge

      I once used a vet who would only prescribe and dispense the amounts of a oft-used drug (like bute) that was needed for the problem at hand. That was a total pain, and it made me feel "less than." Our relationship did not last.

      But I would hate to have more cooperative vets find themselves penalized for "extra" meds they dispensed that wind up in the wrong hands.

      For that reason, I keep the meds I have been sold private.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I'd like to leave the conversation open to any drugs that require a script from a vet.

        Can you detail what the heads up was about?
        http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

        Originally Posted by JSwan
        I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

        Comment


        • #5
          There is a practice around here that wont dispense Ace, or Dormosidan, or banamine. Their reasoning is you might accidentally fall on the syringe and poison yourself. Whatever. Like I really want have to pay for a farm call anytime I need a horse a sedated or given some banamine.
          Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

          Comment


          • #6
            #1 the local paper that this incident supposedly occurred at said it NEVER happened! I tried to quote it but the thread got locked down. There are no police or hospital reports what so ever to back up this ridiculous salacious obviously politically motivated FAKE "report" from a news paper that is about as truthful as The Onion is serious!

            In college the cure for a hangover was a 1/4 g of bute - never tried it but the Vet students swore by it.

            Ugly false crappola just makes it hard for real HORSE people to accomplish ANYTHING!

            Unfreaking believable that this pack of LIES has to show up twice in two days. You lost the election GET OVER IT!!!!!
            "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

            Comment


            • #7
              The bottom line is that most licensing boards in each state have rules that outline when prescription meds can be dispensed. And in most cases, in order to do that LEGALLY without threat of losing their veterinary license, veterinarians cannot dispense prescription medication without having seen the animal for the condition being treated.

              IE: You know how most of us think nothing of keeping bute or banamine on hand? Well, technically, that's illegal in most states.

              Having moved around a bit, most veterinarians I've dealt with will let you buy some to have on hand ONCE THERE'S AN ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP. But they will not just dispense to someone randomly off the street.

              I think it tends to be more lax in large animal medicine than in small animal medicine due in part to the fact that most large animals are seen on site, not hauled in to a clinic. So some of the basics are scripted out just in case a vet cannot get there quickly.

              I used to field calls when I worked in a veterinary clinic--very angry people on the other end of the line--who wanted antibiotics or certain meds for their pets without bringing the pet in to be seen. We simply couldn't do it.

              How were we to know via phone if the animal in question NEEDED an antibiotic? What if we sent something home and it made things WORSE because it was the wrong thing? Most customers simply don't have the training or experience to adequately assess the situation.

              With large animals though, your average Joe owner likely has a lot more experience treating at home and especially once there's an established relationship, veterinarians seem much more willing to dispense based on a phone consult. Still doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea.

              Because I had quite few years' worth of experience in veterinary medicine, my veterinarians--both small and large--have let me do quite a bit of stuff on my own once there's a relationship.

              For example...when my dog started up with the seizures last year, rather than send the dog to overnight at the university for monitoring, my vet sent him home with me and enough valium to give IV if it was needed. She said that I was more than qualified to monitor and she felt more comfortable having me watch him diligently than just get checked on rounds.

              Not typical protocol. But I was grateful for it.
              A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

              Might be a reason, never an excuse...

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it depends on the class of drugs. For instance something like Ketamine that is abused. Ketamine along with other class II drugs legally should be in a double lock safe according to DEA regs. If I had to have any of these drugs that have a high human abuse potential I would totally keep them in a locked room and in a combo safe. (hopefully they wouldn't need to be kept cold).

                I never had the need for any heavy duty stuff but as far as bute, banamine, ace, etc my vet hands them out like candy. I just call and they mail them or if I need them asap I pick them up. I will also add I have used the same vet practice for over 10 years and the vets are very familiar with me. Enough so to feel comfy about my knowledge of when to use Rx's that I need.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Woodland View Post
                  Unfreaking believable that this pack of LIES has to show up twice in two days. You lost the election GET OVER IT!!!!!
                  Ummm....did you read my post?

                  Can we keep this non-political and discuss the handling and distribution of drugs and what policies we should support wrt our vets?
                  http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                  Originally Posted by JSwan
                  I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
                    Because I had quite few years' worth of experience in veterinary medicine, my veterinarians--both small and large--have let me do quite a bit of stuff on my own once there's a relationship.

                    For example...when my dog started up with the seizures last year, rather than send the dog to overnight at the university for monitoring, my vet sent him home with me and enough valium to give IV if it was needed. She said that I was more than qualified to monitor and she felt more comfortable having me watch him diligently than just get checked on rounds.

                    Not typical protocol. But I was grateful for it.
                    I'm dealing with kind of the opposite thing right now. We took my gelding up to the university to get some sores on his coronary band looked at. They've been there for years, nothing makes them go away, so I wanted to get it looked into. The university took a culture - diagnosed it & told me they have an injectible antibiotic they want to put him on. The catch is - they won't write me a scrip without talking to a local vet & getting that vet to come out "a few times" to show me how to give the shot! Even though we have a former vet tech working on staff & my BO has been in this business for 35 years!
                    Life is hard. Buy a freaking helmet.
                    Originally posted by meupatdoes
                    Whatever, go gallop.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post

                      With large animals though, your average Joe owner likely has a lot more experience treating at home and especially once there's an established relationship, veterinarians seem much more willing to dispense based on a phone consult. Still doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea.
                      A really good friend of mine is a cow vet. She said that the farmers know so much and often have even better equipment than they do...if they call the vet in, it's really bad if the farmer can't handle it.
                      http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                      Originally Posted by JSwan
                      I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by RomeosGirl View Post
                        I'm dealing with kind of the opposite thing right now. We took my gelding up to the university to get some sores on his coronary band looked at. They've been there for years, nothing makes them go away, so I wanted to get it looked into. The university took a culture - diagnosed it & told me they have an injectible antibiotic they want to put him on. The catch is - they won't write me a scrip without talking to a local vet & getting that vet to come out "a few times" to show me how to give the shot! Even though we have a former vet tech working on staff & my BO has been in this business for 35 years!
                        Can you PT me about the diagnosis? I'm looking for ideas - one of the boys has these sores and my vet is stumped...she's done culture after culture, we do every topical treatment from powders to frog pee out of a silver basin and nothing's worked.
                        http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                        Originally Posted by JSwan
                        I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As long as the thread stays focused on the horse-related aspects of this issue, and doesn't get sucked into politics, child rearing, etc., it's fine.

                          We were also contacted by another poster who had done some digging into the accuracy of the original report cited on the other thread, so you'll likely have some further input shortly.

                          Thanks!
                          Mod 1

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                            There is a practice around here that wont dispense Ace, or Dormosidan, or banamine. Their reasoning is you might accidentally fall on the syringe and poison yourself. Whatever. Like I really want have to pay for a farm call anytime I need a horse a sedated or given some banamine.

                            There was a recent exchange on one of the several equine veterinary mailing lists I'm on, and the overwhelming majority of posts were vehemently opposed to the dispensing of entire vials of sedatives, and many to dispensing them at all.

                            Bottom line is that the legal authorities regard the dispensing veterinarian as the responsible party for what goes on with those drugs.

                            They are prescription drugs for good reason.

                            It's not worth my livelihood to worry overmuch whether that annoys a client.
                            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Regarding the prostaglandin diversion story:

                              I have checked the AVMA, Wisconsin VMA, AAHA, and AAEP websites, as well as inquiring on VIN.

                              Additionally, those organizations do send urgent bulletins to the membership via email, and there has been nothing.

                              Nothing from any of those sources.

                              When I read the original post, it reminded me of the hoax that went around a few years ago regarding a supposed equine "birth control" drug being combined with rohypnol and slipped to unsuspecting women, who were not only then date raped, but rendered permanently sterile.

                              Like that, this latest "news" set off my BS detector, so I did some poking around, and, so far, nada.


                              This is not to say there might not be an isolated incident.
                              But no epidemic.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I can understand your point of view Ghazzu.

                                I'm sure you can understand mine as well.

                                I'm 50 minutes from the vet clinic. I have 6 horses. I am capable of giving IM & IV shots. Sometimes I have horses who are rehabbing from injuries and need to be sedated each day for hand walking or returning to light / controlled work. Am I supposed to have the vet out every day to sedate my horse for their exercise?

                                I wouldn't work with a practice that didn't work with me. It just wouldn't be practical.
                                Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                                  I can understand your point of view Ghazzu.

                                  I'm sure you can understand mine as well.

                                  I'm 50 minutes from the vet clinic. I have 6 horses. I am capable of giving IM & IV shots. Sometimes I have horses who are rehabbing from injuries and need to be sedated each day for hand walking or returning to light / controlled work. Am I supposed to have the vet out every day to sedate my horse for their exercise?

                                  I wouldn't work with a practice that didn't work with me. It just wouldn't be practical.
                                  In your situation, the dispensing of sedatives sufficient for that purpose wouldn't be a big issue for me. That, IMO could be covered in a VCP relationship.

                                  It's the "I need a bottle of Dormosedan to keep around so I can clip horses" or I need a bottle of trimethoprim/sulfa to have on hand in case I need to give antibiotics" (hello--anyone wonder why we're having so much trouble with resistant bugs?) that is not a legitimate request IMHO.
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Where I live it can take my vet an hour to get to me. That's a long time for a horse to be in pain... when a dose of banamine could ease the symptoms.

                                    But I do know that some folks just love to stick Pookums with every drug imaginable and not think twice about it.

                                    I don't know if the story was true or not... but I would hate for states to become overly intrusive in the vet/client relationship. My vet appears to trust my judgment and so far I don't believe I've abused that trust.

                                    Then again I don't go injecting or feeding my horses medications without my vets prior knowledge and approval.
                                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                    -Rudyard Kipling

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                                      There was a recent exchange on one of the several equine veterinary mailing lists I'm on, and the overwhelming majority of posts were vehemently opposed to the dispensing of entire vials of sedatives, and many to dispensing them at all.

                                      Bottom line is that the legal authorities regard the dispensing veterinarian as the responsible party for what goes on with those drugs.

                                      They are prescription drugs for good reason.

                                      It's not worth my livelihood to worry overmuch whether that annoys a client.
                                      yeah, people can get so indignant about this.

                                      I recently had a situation where I was on the other end of the story. I just moved from a state where I am licensed to one where I am not (yet anyway). I was out of bute and I had a 20 year old horse who needed some bute for an acute flare-up. He was extremely painful. My distributor would not send to my new address until the license came in, so I went to the local vet for some bute. They receptionist said "no way, unless we examine the horse". Didn't matter that I WAS a vet. While this didn't help me at all, it was the absolute correct thing to do. Why should any vet risk his/her livelyhood for my convenience? people need to understand that every time a vet does this, they risk their license. And if people think it does not happen, I know of a vet that have lost his license for exactly this reason.

                                      I sympathize with the argument for having things on hand for emergencies, but people need to understand the legal and liability aspect as well....
                                      Turn off the computer and go ride!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Update on the original flap:

                                        AVMA has been made aware of a *rumor* of 2 cases. No confirmation forthcoming from any official sources, but they are tracking it. The wingnut press has been pushing the story.

                                        This is a concern mainly because people *might* believe it and try it.
                                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                        Comment

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