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Question for vegetarians.

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  • Question for vegetarians.

    The off topic forum was closed before I could ask this question on the vegetarian thread, but maybe it still fits here, since it is about horses also:

    I received this notice and was wondering some questions, that I am sure vegetarians have mulled over and may have found some answers:

    ---"Vegetarianism Among Children is at a rate of one out of every 200 U.S. people under the age of 18, according to a recent CDC report. In its coverage of the report, the Associated Press quoted vegetarians who said animal welfare, not health, is what motivates most child vegetarians. However, there are health-related reasons to be concerned about meatless diets for children.
    Lean beef is a naturally rich source of several nutrients important to cognitive development and functioning including iron, zinc and vitamin B12. Beef's ability to provide the high quality protein necessary in the diet of growing boys and girls also must not be overlooked."---

    Yes, that was from a cattlemens magazine release, but brought questions about how do vegetarians feel about not eating meat "for animal welfare reasons" and still will have pets and many evidently, as they were posting here, are involved with horses.

    Animal welfare doesn't preclude anyone from eating meat, as animal welfare is in the forefront of anyone raising animals for meat.
    If they didn't have the welfare of the animals in mind, animals would just not perform properly, as unhappy or abused animals just are not thrifty.
    I think that many are blowing out of proportion any abuses, forgetting that some abuse will happen in all we do in life, with people and animals, that is it part of who some people are and that the rest of us is always trying to curb abuse wherever it happens.
    We need to keep remembering that use is NOT abuse.

    My question is, if someone thinks just by us using animals for all the products and uses we make of them are not doing a good enough job that some have to protest by not consuming those products, that their bodies evolved to use and need, especially the young, still growing bodies, how do they explain to themselves that they do make use of animals in other ways, as pets, including the horses they enjoy and ride?

    I find being a vegetarian for "animal welfare" reasons and then still riding horses for their own pleasure a little bit like saying I don't agree that others do what they want with animals and won't use those products, but when I want to do something with animals, it is ok, so I have dogs, cats and horses and use their products as leathers and others.

    It just doesn't seem logical to me.

  • #2
    I think that there is a dramatic difference between decrying the inhumane slaughter of horses, and riding them. You are swinging from one end of the pendulum, to the other.

    The reason I disagree so often with your viewpoints, is that you literally offer the most consevative view point, and then state that any other is an extremist view. You go from reasonable freedoms, to "if you don't agree- the Nazi's are coming!"

    You CAN buy sythetic tack, and shoes that aren't leather....etc. I certainly am not "perfect", by any standard. I DO eat chicken and turkey. I have my guilty moments, but I am not going to eat beef, and I can't even comprehend eating horse. I struggle with the idea of cheese, knowing that calves are being ill-treated, and slaughtered. And yes, if I had to kill anything, I'd be a vegan.
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

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    • #3
      Come on, Bluey, you can't possibly be comparing the raising of hogs in gestation crates where they are immobile for the majority of their life to riding a horse that is properly cared for.

      http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-avoid-1.jpg

      These could not possibly be two more different and unrelated cases.

      I am not a vegetarian but I have not eaten pork in years because of gestation crates and living conditions for hogs in factory farms. I eat very little meat and search high and low for sources where I do not have to imagine this sort of hell.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well for one, I don't believe that we need to eat beef. Sorry, haven't had a bite of it since I was 12- and I grew up just fine- strong, healthy and a contributing member of society...


        I may not be the same as others, but I don't eat meat for a few reasons- one- I don't like the taste of it. Two- I don't like to support the mass production of animals for human consumption. I don't have a concern with those that hunt wild animals for consumtion, or animals that are raised by a family and then slaughtered- as long as they are treated humanely. I only by local eggs and milk from people I know treat their chickens and cows well and on occassion I will eat fish that is caught by local fisherman- or my own family.

        I don't deny the food chain and the nature of predator versus prey- but I do take issue with chickens being bred without eyelashes so they can't sleep- breast so enlarged they would not be able to fly- or cows given mass amounts of anitbiotics and steroids to make them grow faster- living in filth- and/or chained to huts. I have seen feedlots and the sad animals that are there to be slaughtered for human consumption- the smell alone is forever branded in my memory.

        I believe in "you are what you eat" and eating the flesh of an animal that was a genetic mutation - or lived in a filthy disgusting conditions, and/or died a horrible death just doesn't sit well with me and I refuse to support those industries.

        Lastly, I see no correlation with the above and owning and loving a cat a horse and a dog.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by S1969 View Post
          Come on, Bluey, you can't possibly be comparing the raising of hogs in gestation crates where they are immobile for the majority of their life to riding a horse that is properly cared for.

          http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-avoid-1.jpg

          These could not possibly be two more different and unrelated cases.

          I am not a vegetarian but I have not eaten pork in years because of gestation crates and living conditions for hogs in factory farms. I eat very little meat and search high and low for sources where I do not have to imagine this sort of hell.
          I am not talking about any one kind of raising of animals, if you don't agree with that, work to change it.
          I am talking in general, people that won't eat any meat, even if that means they miss some important part of their diet in some nutrients that they can't hardly get from any other sources, on a flimsy reason and single cases, like the crated hogs, but then do go ahead and use horses, that all know also fall in the hands of abusers of all kinds.

          If you want to say all are abusers no matter what they do with animals and I won't eat any animal products or use them, then I would think it is logical that people that feel like that, IN GENERAL, would not be using HORSES either, as we do USE them.
          It is not in the best interest of horses to be raised, confined, trained and ridden, if you really look at this only from the horse's side.

          Comment


          • #6
            Vegetarian children do not miss important parts of their diet. If you look at life span records of people in the USA, those groups that don't eat meat live much longer than those that do. Veggy children are as healthy, if not healthier.

            Bluey: Ever hear of milk and eggs? Vegan does not equal vegetarian. Tell me, what are children missing? The fat? The hormones? The steroids? The growth factor? The excess protein?

            Frankly, your point of view is just plain ole weird and aimed at raising trouble.

            Go do some research and then come back. Citing cattlemens association propoganda as fact is wrong (for some reason Oprah comes to mind).
            Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Cielo Azure View Post
              Vegetarian children do not miss important parts of their diet. If you look at life span records of people in the USA, those groups that don't eat meat live much longer than those that do. Veggy children are as healthy, if not healthier.

              Do you have any firm figures on that?

              Bluey: Ever hear of milk and eggs? Vegan does not equal vegetarian. Tell me, what are children missing? The fat? The hormones? The steroids? The growth factor? The excess protein?

              They are missing some vitamins and minerals and the whole complement of proteins, as some aminoacids we need are found in the best available form in meats.
              I think there has been enough research that indicates if a kid is raised as a vegetarian only it can be legally considered abuse.


              Frankly, your point of view is just plain ole weird and aimed at raising trouble.

              Go do some research and then come back. Citing cattlemens association propoganda as fact is wrong (for some reason Oprah comes to mind).
              Thank you for explaining the differences between vegetarian and vegan.

              The last of your post does seem, as you say, "aimed to raise trouble".

              My posts are honest questions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                Come on, Bluey, you can't possibly be comparing the raising of hogs in gestation crates where they are immobile for the majority of their life to riding a horse that is properly cared for.
                .
                Hogs aren't raised in gestation crates and they're not kept immobile for the majority of their life.

                Most folks who decry farming methods don't have the foggiest notion of how animals are raised or handled.

                While you may think riding a horse does not compare to the raising of animals for food, you'd be surprised to find that most people would disagree. The notion of a horse being ridden, asked to jump or do dressage, to be forced to live in a stall - these are no different than gestation crates, veal crates, force feeding for foie gras, or any other industrial farming method.

                Don't be so flippant about keeping horses. Most Americans don't ride, don't know anything about horses, and think we're a bunch of rich white people who deserve to be maligned, taxed, and that we're all cruel to our horses.

                Chances are a lot of people out there that would very much like to liberate your horse - and they don't care if the horse lives or dies, as long as it's taken out of your control.



                (before you lambaste me, I was a vegetarian for many years. My statement isn't made out of ignorance )

                Carry on with the impending train wreck.
                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                -Rudyard Kipling

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hogs spend most their life in a gestation crate? Where is this at. I've raised 1000's of hogs and have never even owned a gestation crate. People who make these kinds of statements either have no clue on the subject or make them to try and start a fight.
                  Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    http://www.usnews.com/articles/scien...uman-diet.html
                    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cielo Azure View Post
                      Vegetarian children do not miss important parts of their diet. If you look at life span records of people in the USA, those groups that don't eat meat live much longer than those that do. Veggy children are as healthy, if not healthier.
                      Ah, but as you pointed out in your "what are they missing?" list... I don't believe your above statements would be true (or AS true) if one looked at the difference between vegetarian and a meat eating diet consisting of NATURALLY raised meats. this would include no hormones, no antibiotics, no grain fed meats.... grass fed, pasture raised is GOOD stuff! It's what mankind has been raised on for thousands of years. Obviously we weren't doing EVERYTHING wrong. It's only been in the last few decades that we're seeing health declines associated with food consumption -- to include obesity, diabetes, autism spectrum disorders (I wasn't online early enough to comment on the OT discussion but I think the rise in these disorders is PRIMARILY due to foods we eat and that our parents have eaten). We now have the 2nd (sometimes 3rd) full generation of TV and Microwave dinner eaters....as well as high fructose corn syrup in everything eaters.

                      What we eat is cummulative.... I read a study once on how a feast or famine at certain times during the grandparents lives (12-13 years old if i remember correctly) could affect how their grandchildren processed certain foods. It was fascinating and I wish I could cite my source but it's been too long ago. So why do we not think that what we eat in terms of over-processed, over hormoned, over anti-biotic'd, over-chemicaled and over sugared isn't going to affect us... much less our children?

                      So while I won't say that Bluey isn't pot-stirring with the way the questions and information has been phrased, to blanketly say that vegetarian children are healthier than those who eat meat without regards to the types of meats much less the frequency or the content of the rest their diet isn't much better.
                      ************
                      "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                      "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well as far as not eating for their personal belief, that is a different issue.
                        But health wise , it is fine. I grew up in India, where a big chunk of the population is vegetarian. Milk is the only "acceptable" animal product. Most of them do just fine and with the advent of modern medicine, the life expactancy has shot up to close to 69. It is low, but that is more due to poverty, lack of access to health care, a big chunk surviving on one meal a day etc.Nutrition wise being vegetarian is fine-all though I am not sure how it would be without milk? Almost all my relatives were pure vegetarians-milk excepted-and survived into their 70s and 80s. My great grandma lived to be 98. My parents were the first to eat meat, when they moved to the Middle East for a job.

                        But the other stuff, I don't know-I eat evrything except horse, cat and dog. While I am not a fan of factory type corporate farming, I eat out most of the time, so I have no clue where the meat comes from. So I really have no right to point fingers at anybody!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't see why this has to be a black or white issue.

                          Vegetarianism is nothing new.

                          A healthy nutritious diet is hard to come by in much of the world, and I'm afraid that's starting to include Western countries as well. In our case, it's from overconsumption of calorie dense foods almost complete devoid of nutrition.

                          There's nothing "wrong" with eating meat, and there is nothing "wrong" with not eating it. If your personal philosophy or religion forbids the consumption of certain foodstsuffs, then don't eat them.

                          I'd prefer it if you didn't force your beliefs on the rest of us. I'd not force a Muslim to eat pork or drink alcohol, and I'd prefer it if vegetarians didn't force their beliefs on me.

                          I find these threads interesting because I raise most of my own food, including meat. I grow it, harvest it and preserve it. I sell a few herd shares for a little income. And a lot of you find that disgusting. And I'd bet that the same folks that find it disgusting take great pride in eating organic strawberries, grown in Mexico, and shipped thousands of miles to be consumed in January.

                          It boggles the mind.....
                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                          -Rudyard Kipling

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                            I don't see why this has to be a black or white issue.

                            Vegetarianism is nothing new.

                            A healthy nutritious diet is hard to come by in much of the world, and I'm afraid that's starting to include Western countries as well. In our case, it's from overconsumption of calorie dense foods almost complete devoid of nutrition.

                            There's nothing "wrong" with eating meat, and there is nothing "wrong" with not eating it. If your personal philosophy or religion forbids the consumption of certain foodstsuffs, then don't eat them.

                            I'd prefer it if you didn't force your beliefs on the rest of us. I'd not force a Muslim to eat pork or drink alcohol, and I'd prefer it if vegetarians didn't force their beliefs on me.

                            I find these threads interesting because I raise most of my own food, including meat. I grow it, harvest it and preserve it. I sell a few herd shares for a little income. And a lot of you find that disgusting. And I'd bet that the same folks that find it disgusting take great pride in eating organic strawberries, grown in Mexico, and shipped thousands of miles to be consumed in January.

                            It boggles the mind.....
                            Yes, I wanted to hear opinions, not people becoming defensive and emotional over why they may or not be vegetarians because of the animals, but still use animals when it suits their purposes.

                            It didn't make sense to me, but some of the explanations here do make some sense, in different ways.

                            When people used horses for all kinds of ways they made a living, people understood that we do need animals for our own lives.

                            I think that, with the loss of direct, general use, we are marginalizing horses and, like Swan pointed out, less and less people really care for them any more, other than as a magical figure.
                            Interesting thoughts, thank you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One of the things I've always found sad is so many people I hear go on about things like " hogs live in crates " or chickens live in cages " and think they ahould all be running on large tracts of land are the same ones that have a horse locked in a stall or small paddock. Its fine for them to do it just no one else.
                              Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by county View Post
                                One of the things I've always found sad is so many people I hear go on about things like " hogs live in crates " or chickens live in cages " and think they ahould all be running on large tracts of land are the same ones that have a horse locked in a stall or small paddock. Its fine for them to do it just no one else.
                                That is just what JSwan meant, I think, that depending on what you are familiar with, you may think one or another is abusive.
                                In Europe, where there is no room for horses other than in stalls, they spend most of their lives there once grown and in work and are fine, because they get to go out every day, many times every day most of them to be ridden in indoor lessons, outdoor lessons and trail rides.
                                Horses managed like that are fine in stalls for their down time.

                                Stalling a horse and not letting him out hardly, that is as abusive as turning one out in the biggest pastures and leaving him alone to fend for himself, without providing some supervision, water and food if necessary.

                                Calling where we keep a horse abusive is not about the space they are living in, within reason, but that the management of the horses be adequate to that space.

                                So, you can see where what you feel, in different circumstances, can be fine, as others see it.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have been a vegetarian for about 35 years. I grew up in a household where we had meat and veggies. When I went to college, my roomates decided to be vegetarians, so I was forced into it in a way.

                                  I had great roomate cooks, and enjoyed not eating meat. When I came home, I found I didn't like the taste of meat at all. So, I chose to eat for most of my life, no other mammal. Lately, due to the reports on poultry abuse at slaughter plants, I decided, no chicken either.

                                  I have many friends who raise their own pigs, beef, poultry. Some are very good at it, including the slaughter, others are reprehensible, and I find it disgusting that their thought of care and slaughter is not a consideration. They don't think the animal feels pain or suffering.

                                  Now, as far as my keeping horses...well, yes, I do ride, and drive, etc. I don't think my horses suffer for being kept in stalls at night in the blasting cold air. In fact, I think my horses are very well cared for.
                                  I don't think half the US population thinks I should set my horses free either.

                                  I do try to not use leather as much as possible. I won't buy a car with leather seats, etc. I really do try and be mindful, but I also indulge in leather shoes. I am not perfect, but I do try to think about how my actions affect others, including animals.

                                  Do I think I am being hypocritical? No, I think I live pretty ethically and with attention to how much impact I am making on my property, the earth, etc. I am very careful about the impact my horses have on the soil, sub surface water, et.

                                  But, I chose not to eat meat after reading about a feed company that put herbicide in the grain of dairy cows and many folks became sick from the exposure. This was an old Ron Howard movie based on a true story. Later, I moved into the direction of animal welfare as I became increasingly aware of the factory farming and conditions most animals are kept in.

                                  I do not begrudge anyone from eating meat...I also grew up in a hunting family, and yes, it may be odd for someone to walk into my house and see a deer head if they know me on a superficial surface.
                                  I just expect and hope anyone who does eat meat to be respectful of its source and its treatment in life and in slaughter.

                                  So, to sum up my response, I do not feel any oxymoron or hypocracy in being a vegetarian and a person who enjoys using her horses. I also don't feel bad about having a deer head on the wall. Now, if I shot it, well, then I think that might be different, yet I think some of the best advocates for animal welfare and conservancy are hunters. Its my dad who instilled my philosophy, he taught me the absolute responsibility of an animal welfare's is our responsibility as a human, yet, would go out and shoot Bambi or any other animal. However, he was intolerant of those who shot to shoot, and not to kill or who did not take care of their animals.

                                  I think it has made me more tolerant of other people's lifestyles...as long as they are respectful of how they take a life.
                                  save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have seriously considered becoming a vegetarian in the past. I do believe that meat is healthy and I love the taste but my problem is how SOME livestock are raised and more importantly slaughtered BUT since I have a leather saddle, leather seats in my truck and so on I feel that if I became a vegetarian for the reasons above that I would be a VERY big hippocrite. What I have tried to do now is only eat meat that I know was raised and slaughtered humanely. I buy my beef from a gentlemen down the road who doesn't use hormones and the cattle are out roaming on pasture their whole lives. When it is time to be slaughtered a butcher comes and puts a bullet in it's head. To me all this is humane and the meat is safe.
                                    RIP Sucha Smooth Whiskey
                                    May 17,2004 - March 29, 2010
                                    RIP San Lena Peppy
                                    May 3, 1991 - March 11, 2010

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      When compared with the synthetic substitutes, leather is not inherently "bad". At least it breaks down and was natural to begin with! And it's a renewable resource, unlike whatever-it-is synthetic stuff is made from.
                                      Click here before you buy.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                        When compared with the synthetic substitutes, leather is not inherently "bad". At least it breaks down and was natural to begin with! And it's a renewable resource, unlike whatever-it-is synthetic stuff is made from.
                                        I agree!! There is no way I would even consider synthetic tack.
                                        RIP Sucha Smooth Whiskey
                                        May 17,2004 - March 29, 2010
                                        RIP San Lena Peppy
                                        May 3, 1991 - March 11, 2010

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