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For those who are truly interested in learning about dog food/vaccines

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Bluey View Post
    As for those that don't vaccinate, if you were around when polio was still running rampant, you would not have to ask why someone not vaccinating puts the rest at risk, much more risk than the rare reaction to a vaccine.
    I went to school with polio handicapped kids, some in crutches and braces and those were the lucky ones.
    Are you talking about the outbreaks in the early 50s? That was before the Salk vaccine, right? (Some would even say that all polio incidences since then were caused by the vaccine, but i digress.)

    You aren't addressing my question. I am not saying that vaccines are bad and they should not be around. I am asking why, if you are vaccinated, you need to be worried that the person sitting next to you is not vaccinated. Polio is still around...it's not like the vaccine has totally eradicated the illness....heck, a polio vaccine was blamed for an outbreak in Nigeria a couple years ago.

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    • #22
      You need to be worried because yes, unvaccinated people running around increase the risk of resistant strains developing. It also, as Bluey said, increases the risk that even if you're vaccinated you'll be exposed to and catch a milder form of the disease.

      Case in point: when I did food service I was around a lot of workers who were of, shall we say, less than legitimate immigration status who do not (I guarantee you) have all the vaccines we consider normal. I caught whooping cough. Because I was vaccinated, it was an unpleasant experience, but nonfatal. (It invovled a lot of truely painful, dizziness-inducing hacking to the point I strained chest muscles and could have cracked a rib.) However, because I had some immunity, I at least didn't die. My dad had an older sister (or would have, he wasn't born yet) who developed whooping cough in the pre-vaccine days. She died. The vaccine didn't prevent me from getting sick when exposed to the unvaccinated, but it did keep an unpleasant uncomfortable illness from being a hospitalization-requiring, potentially fatal one. However, I would much rather not been around someone with no protection who gave me the bug in the first place. (The fact that the rampant hiring of illegals in kitchens means that people who don't necessarily have any documented vaccines, including what we're REQUIRED to have like Hep A vax, are handling and serving food, is another thread for an OT day.)

      My cat's getting his rabies and distemper Friday. My dog gets her heartworm medicine. She came from the shelter with heartworm and after watching the horrible treatment required to cure it, I would FAR rather use a preventative than have to treat a dog for it.
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      • #23
        You know, these threads always amaze me.

        The ongoing theme seems to be that vets don't know *anything* about vaccs and that they are just out to get your money.

        But when you have a dog with a problem you can't explain where do you go and do you follow their advice then??????

        the anti-vaccs people also seem to think that the big pharma companies are out to kill their pets. This just amazes me. If they were out to do that, or even to harm your pets, don't you think it would have happened by now? amazing. Think about how many dogs with distemper you see now compared to the early to mid 1900's. There is a drastic drop in the disease. Drastic. And as for rabies.....in the under developed countries, especially Africa, it is rampant. As per the CDC "remains highly endemic, including (but not limited to) parts of Africa, Asia, and Central and South America (8,9)."

        see: http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/yellowBookCh4-Rabies.aspx

        The anti-vaccs folks rely on those who *do* vaccinate their pets to keep the protect their unvaccinated pet and they are lucky lucky lucky that here in the USA it works for them.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by danceronice View Post
          Because I was vaccinated, it was an unpleasant experience, but nonfatal. (It invovled a lot of truely painful, dizziness-inducing hacking to the point I strained chest muscles and could have cracked a rib.) However, because I had some immunity, I at least didn't die.
          Whooping cough is not a fatal disease. 1% die from whooping cough, and most adults recover without problem. It is infants, young kids, and those with compromised immune systems who can have complications that require hospitalization. Claiming that the vaccine saved you from death seems dramatic to me. I just read that the vaccine protection wears off 5 to 10 years after the last dose. Maybe that was why you got sick? Anyway, this is off topic.

          I am happy everyone vaccinates their farm dogs and horses! Let's continue making the world a healthier place!

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          • #25
            Check out references on "herd immunity". A vaccinated person sitting next to an unvaccinated/infected person with "disease X" is not in danger, but the NEXT unvaccinated/UNINFECTED person certainly is. If the disease is not present due to wiedespread vaccination (eradication, or as close to it as we can get) then the unvaccinated are far safer. You can't catch a bug that nobody is passing around.

            http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-herd-immunity.htm (please forgive the cheesy website and its shlocky ads . . . I just liked the simple definition)
            Click here before you buy.

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            • #26
              In addition to previous points pointing out why vaccinated people are at risk--

              With many vaccines, even if you are vaccinated, you are not completely covered if exposed. You have a greater chance of your antibodies being about to fight off the disease, and if you do catch it the disease tends to not be as bad.

              But if your immune system is down (particularly common in the very young, the very old, the very sick) you are still susceptible to the disease. The key is that large numbers of vaccinations reduce the prevalence of the disease, and therefore these vulnerable people are less likely to be exposed to it.

              So it is not just your health that you risk when you don't vaccinate, but also the health of the vulnerable around you.

              Everyone probably knows one person or animal that had a reaction to a vaccine. What we will never know is how many more people and animals would be dead if vaccines weren't commonly administered. It is likely to be much more extensive than you think, for these and the reasons in DW's post/link.

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              • #27
                1% nowdays. Certainly not in the 1930s. And obviously I still had some immunity or I would have been much sicker--it's doccumented in whooping cough that the previosuly vaccinated get much milder forms than the unvaccinated. Children basically don't get it all anymore.

                The flu is also largely nonfatal--except in children, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems. Shall we stop vaccinating for that, too? Measles is largely nonfatal in everyone, but it can cause lifelong infertility in males and other lasting effects. Should we quit vaccinating for that because the MMR might, maybe, possibly, have some side effects in some children?

                Not off-topic as what it boils down to is: in humans or in animals, vaccines do more to prevent disease and minimize them than any damage they do. Many more humans and animals died of disease before vaccines than do now. threedogpack is right--the non-vaccinators are relying on people who do vaccinate to keep their animals or children safe. That only works if the majority keep vaccinating. Spreading scare stories is not helpful.
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                • #28
                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  A vaccinated person sitting next to an unvaccinated/infected person with "disease X" is not in danger, but the NEXT unvaccinated/UNINFECTED person certainly is.
                  Thanks, Deltawave. That was what I was asking.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                    1% nowdays. Certainly not in the 1930s.
                    Oh, really? According to this article, in 1934, 3% of cases resulted in death. Not quite the death march you insinuate.
                    http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=827

                    Did I say we should get rid of vaccines or that they were inherently bad? Nope. I just wanted to know how unvaccinated people were such a problem. But it amazes me that some of you think each and every vaccine is the best thing on earth. And, please, spare me the flu vaccine talk.

                    I never got the chicken pox vaccine since they didn't have it when I was a kid. I have also never had chicken pox. Better keep me away from your kids. I may just cause an epidemic!!

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                    • #30
                      For what it's worth, I vaccinnate my animals against anything they might possibly come into contact with. Since none of them have had any hint of a reaction I figure there is no harm done, and much possibly prevented.

                      I did work as a vet tech for awhile and I was surprised to hear that one of the vets in the clinic did not vaccinnate his own dogs. Even though at times they came to the clinic with him and he would not have had to have paid for the drugs, he chose not to vaccinnate stating that the risk of the vaccine did not outweigh the protection offered.

                      Hmmm. I still vaccinnate for peace of mind and the possibility of having to board in an emergency, but when a licensed practicing vet says he doesn't then it makes me think. And I was told that even the 1 yr rabies protects for 3 years. It had more to do with liscensing and getting reluctant clients back in the door than actual protection for the animal.
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                      • #31
                        No, but hopefully you never will get chicken pox. Adults tends to get much sicker with chicken pox than kids. So you better hope the kids around you are vaccinated.

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                        • #32
                          Then I had better go get the vaccine!

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            How the heck did this turn into people????


                            Now, let me ask this question.....do we continuely vaccinate ourselves as adults???? No, we don't....so why do we continue to vaccinate our adult animals annually.

                            To the poster who said I'm anti-vet.....oh no, I'm not....just prefer one with a holisitc approach. There are many DVMs out there who also believe we overvaccinate our animals..

                            Do your own research and decide what's right for you. I don't take my dogs to dog parks, dog shows, or other big dog areas....so no, I'm not too awful worried about them picking up communicable diseases.

                            Also for those who continue to say that "IT IS because Science says it IS"...well, how many times, have we been told one thing...(For example..eggs are bad for you) only to turn around a year or so later and decide that conclusion was wrong.

                            Nothing is fool proof.

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                            • #34
                              I personally had a horse that died a terrible death from EHV-1 because I vaccinated her annually instead of on the recommended 6-month schedule for showing horses. Every day I wish that I had vaccinated more, and am grateful to the vaccine that my other horses survived having it in the barn.

                              How is that for a grim personal experience....

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                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                                I personally had a horse that died a terrible death from EHV-1 because I vaccinated her annually instead of on the recommended 6-month schedule for showing horses. Every day I wish that I had vaccinated more, and am grateful to the vaccine that my other horses survived having it in the barn.

                                How is that for a grim personal experience....
                                Very much so...sorry to hear about your girl. If my dogs were more at risk (ie around alot of other dogs) I would resconsider...but for me, I prefer titers.....for me THAT is peace of mind.

                                Now, my horses are at a large boarding barn.....so they are vaccinated yearly.

                                For the dogs, I do puppy vaccines, a booster...and then titers only.

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by dalpal View Post
                                  Now, let me ask this question.....do we continuely vaccinate ourselves as adults???? No, we don't....so why do we continue to vaccinate our adult animals annually.

                                  Now the typical protocol is every 3 years.... and we do live much longer on average than cats and dogs.

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                                  • #37
                                    The important statement - and it has been made above as well - is that there is no research that indicates what a "protective titer" is in animals (dogs or horses) for any of these vaccines.

                                    As a result, titers can be run all day long and yet there is no hard data about what titer value is required to avoid re-vaccinating. What value will be protective is simply theory. The studies establishing 3 year vaccine windows for a number of cat and dog vaccines were completed as challenge studies, not simply by evaluating vaccine titers.

                                    Every animal has different needs - these can be assessed by your veterinarian. Trying to make blanket statements about vaccines or veterinary ethics is nothing short of inflammatory.

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                      Now the typical protocol is every 3 years.... and we do live much longer on average than cats and dogs.
                                      Not always.....some vets around here still vaccinate yearly. We may live longer, but after childhood, we do not vaccinate ourselves for things such as chicken pox, etc.....makes absolutley no sense to me as to why we revaccinate adult animals over and over again??????

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by CaitlinTB View Post
                                        The important statement - and it has been made above as well - is that there is no research that indicates what a "protective titer" is in animals (dogs or horses) for any of these vaccines.

                                        As a result, titers can be run all day long and yet there is no hard data about what titer value is required to avoid re-vaccinating. What value will be protective is simply theory. The studies establishing 3 year vaccine windows for a number of cat and dog vaccines were completed as challenge studies, not simply by evaluating vaccine titers.

                                        Every animal has different needs - these can be assessed by your veterinarian. Trying to make blanket statements about vaccines or veterinary ethics is nothing short of inflammatory.

                                        Oh good grief...that's BS Catilin...please go look at all the veterinarians on this page who make the same remarks about vaccines...you may disagree, but don't start an argument over "inflammatory remarks".

                                        Every vet listed on this particular page is against overvaccination.

                                        http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm

                                        Here's a good article about titers/vaccines....note before you read it, it is in the holisitic camp.

                                        http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...titer_test.htm

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                                          I personally had a horse that died a terrible death from EHV-1 because I vaccinated her annually instead of on the recommended 6-month schedule for showing horses. Every day I wish that I had vaccinated more, and am grateful to the vaccine that my other horses survived having it in the barn.
                                          I am sorry to hear that. Did your horse die from the neurological form? If so, more frequent vaccination would not have saved her, because there is no effective vaccine against the neurological strain.

                                          http://www.myhorse.com/health/preven...horse.aspx#top
                                          (see second page)

                                          http://www.agdepartment.com/Programs...VirusType1.htm

                                          Someone please correct me if this has changed since these articles were written.

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