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Turning horses out at night & aggressive dogs

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  • #21
    In my opinion, if it is too dark to photograph the dogs loose, then it is too dark to shoot them safely.

    A wildlife camera (takes photos based on a motion sensor) might be a way to get photo proof if you think that helps.

    The traps are also a good idea.

    If the dogs' owner is also a horse person, did you discuss your worries about your horses with them? It could be they keep the dogs out of the pens because they like to eat the poo or something, and not that they are aggressive.

    Overall though, I agree daytime turn out seems safest.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

    Comment


    • #22
      I agree with others that you are probably safest turning your horses out during the day only until the situation is resolved. I would keep working towards a solution--documenting the times the dogs are found on your property, following up with immediate phone calls to the owner and with calls to animal control, and possibly catching the dogs and transporting them to a shelter many counties away.

      If you are a confident shot and conditions are safe to do so, I have no problem with the idea of shooting a dog that is coming on your property and harassing your animals. I wouldn't recommend advertising that you had done it. As a practical matter, unless you are a good shot and shooting conditions are good (adequate light, no livestock in the background), it can be tricky to shoot a moving animal and do so safely.

      As an aside, while it may be within your rights to kill a dog that is harassing your livestock, it may not be worth risking starting a feud with your neighbors. Angry, foolish humans can create just as much trouble (or more) than an aggressive dog.

      Comment


      • #23
        Of all animals, the dog is the most sensitive to electric shock.

        There are charts put out by some of the fence machine manufacturers that list animals, 1 to 5 as I recall, and dogs and horses are at the top.

        Two very large industries are based on this fact; fence machines and wire.....and dog training collars.

        Now dog training collars are intended for and used almost exclusively on dogs that mistake animals, birds, etc., for desired prey when in fact it is the wrong prey.

        However anyone who has any experience in training hunting dogs or bird dogs knows very well that the rogue dog is every bit as serious and intent on grabbing the wrong prey as he is on the correct prey.

        To the trainer, he seems more serious.

        Those of you who don't think an electric fence will stop dogs should do a little google on coyote/wolf/sheep/fences and you will find that a properly constructed electric fence will stop coyote and wolves, so it sure will stop a dog.

        But it must be done correctly.

        For a three board fence, it will be easy to stop a dog.

        I don't know how high off the ground the OP's bottom board is, but probably about 16", maybe less.

        So one wire under the bottom board, 9 to 12" above the ground and another wire between the two bottom boards, properly grounded (very important) and no dog will enter your pasture...unless it is a big dog that jumps fences in which case a wire between every board and another just above the ground a couple of feet outside the fence (in the take-off zone) will stop a jumper.

        As for invisible dog fence, people use that because they do not want to detract from the appearance of their home.

        In my opinion, a bad mistake because it is not as powerful, it leaves the pet to the mercy of wandering dogs and it does not warn visitors and children that there are dogs present that might bite.

        But that is completely beside the point for this discussion.


        By "properly grounded" I did not mean that the wire between the two bottom boards should be grounded. It should be hot, as should be the bottom wire.

        But the fence machine itself must be carefully grounded as described in the insallation instructions.
        Last edited by cssutton; Feb. 5, 2013, 09:02 PM. Reason: Grounding properly

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        • #24
          Originally posted by cssutton View Post
          Of all animals, the dog is the most sensitive to electric shock.

          There are charts put out by some of the fence machine manufacturers that list animals, 1 to 5 as I recall, and dogs and horses are at the top.

          Two very large industries are based on this fact; fence machines and wire.....and dog training collars.

          Now dog training collars are intended for and used almost exclusively on dogs that mistake animals, birds, etc., for desired prey when in fact it is the wrong prey.

          However anyone who has any experience in training hunting dogs or bird dogs knows very well that the rogue dog is every bit as serious and intent on grabbing the wrong prey as he is on the correct prey.

          To the trainer, he seems more serious.

          Those of you who don't think an electric fence will stop dogs should do a little google on coyote/wolf/sheep/fences and you will find that a properly constructed electric fence will stop coyote and wolves, so it sure will stop a dog.

          But it must be done correctly.

          For a three board fence, it will be easy to stop a dog.

          I don't know how high off the ground the OP's bottom board is, but probably about 16", maybe less.

          So one wire under the bottom board, 9 to 12" above the ground and another wire between the two bottom boards, properly grounded (very important) and no dog will enter your pasture...unless it is a big dog that jumps fences in which case a wire between every board and another just above the ground a couple of feet outside the fence (in the take-off zone) will stop a jumper.

          As for invisible dog fence, people use that because they do not want to detract from the appearance of their home.

          In my opinion, a bad mistake because it is not as powerful, it leaves the pet to the mercy of wandering dogs and it does not warn visitors and children that there are dogs present that might bite.

          But that is completely beside the point for this discussion.


          By "properly grounded" I did not mean that the wire between the two bottom boards should be grounded. It should be hot, as should be the bottom wire.

          But the fence machine itself must be carefully grounded as described in the insallation instructions.
          We have three board fencing and in between the ground and the first rail, then between each of the other two rails (basically, in all of the 'spaces') we have a strand of Supercote that stays hot. It keeps our small dogs inside of our fencing. Four of them have touched it one time and one time only, the other touches it about once a month probably to make sure it's still on.

          It does not, however, stop the neighbors dogs from coming in (and getting shocked in the process) in an attempt to get to our cats. The cats are smart enough and quick enough to get away and the dogs don't chase the horses (yet?) so it doesn't bother me too much. However, I really don't think that hot wire is going to stop every single dog - especially one that is intent on killing it's prey. My neighbors dogs would rather be shocked and go after the cats.
          "No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle" - Winston Churchill

          Check out Central Virginia Horse Rescue

          Comment


          • #25
            Our electric fence absolutely kept all MY dogs in. Dogs who had learned the fence hurt. Very large powerful charger that even I was very afraid to accidentally touch.

            Would not stop a dog that didn't know it was there and wanted to run through. Didn't stop them on their way out with my Mustang on their heels either.
            K-N-S Farm
            Daily Goat Videos & Pictures
            Website | Facebook | Youtube

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            • #26
              Go buy a donkey.
              http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.c...ver-livestock/
              ... _. ._ .._. .._

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Epona142 View Post
                Our electric fence absolutely kept all MY dogs in. Dogs who had learned the fence hurt. Very large powerful charger that even I was very afraid to accidentally touch.

                Would not stop a dog that didn't know it was there and wanted to run through. Didn't stop them on their way out with my Mustang on their heels either.
                You might start here:

                http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101617390053

                Comment


                • #28
                  Mmmk.

                  Thanks. I don't have electric fence anymore. After our house burned down we moved to the dairy I work at and have no climb fencing and Great Pyrenees.
                  K-N-S Farm
                  Daily Goat Videos & Pictures
                  Website | Facebook | Youtube

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Personally I have not found electric fences even with very powerful livestock chargers to be consistently effective at keeping out predators and stray dogs. Some dogs/predators don't seem care about the shock. Some dogs learn to get their face/head under the wire and then they are insulated by thick fur on their backs and therefore don't receive a painful shock. Electric fences send out timed pulses of charge, so some dogs learn that if they go through a fence very fast they stand a good chance of missing the shock. Jumping dogs are not shocked by top wires on fences unless their feet are touching the ground at the same time they touch the wire. Remember, an animal (or person) needs to be grounded at the same time they touch a charged wire in order to receive a shock.

                    Also, sometimes electric fences fail just when you need them.

                    Electric training collars have two metal electrodes that press against a dog's skin in the sensitive neck region. There aren't too many good ways for a snugly collared dog to escape that shock, so I don't think it is necessarily accurate to compare electric training collars to electric fences.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Another vote for the donkey here. I found mine on Craig's list for $300 and they are not expensive to keep at all. She gets a vitamin supplement but no grain to keep her from getting fat, and then she just eats the hay and grass the horses eat. She is absolutely fearless and will go after any dog, cat, etc that comes into "her" pasture. And she has never even tried to escape. A donkey may be your cheapest and most hassle-free option.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I would not feel warm and fuzzy expecting a strand of electric fencing to keep a predator out of a pasture.

                        I just do not get owners who know their dogs are a problem to others but do nothing about it.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                          I just do not get owners who know their dogs are a problem to others but do nothing about it.
                          Me, neither. I have two neighbors who used to have loose dogs who would come chase my old horse. I wish I had gone over and had a sit-down discussion with the first batch, but I didn't. I just trained their dog to stay off my property by running him off with a stick. It took a couple of repetitions, but it worked. Then the silly thing ran under my back tire one day and I wound up killing it.

                          The second time it happened (with a different set of neighbors), I went over and talked to them about it, explaining how even though their GSD is a sweet dog (and he is) he frightens my old horse and could make the horse hurt himself by running him. (Either the dog had sense enough not to try running my young horses or my young horses applied their own version of dog-behavior-modification.) Anyway, those neighbors have kept their GSD contained ever since. Which is a much better result for all of us, dog included.

                          Of course, the OP here has had that chat, to no apparent avail. I don't know, maybe it's time for the stick method?
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by cssutton View Post
                            Of all animals, the dog is the most sensitive to electric shock.

                            There are charts put out by some of the fence machine manufacturers that list animals, 1 to 5 as I recall, and dogs and horses are at the top.

                            Two very large industries are based on this fact; fence machines and wire.....and dog training collars.

                            Now dog training collars are intended for and used almost exclusively on dogs that mistake animals, birds, etc., for desired prey when in fact it is the wrong prey.

                            However anyone who has any experience in training hunting dogs or bird dogs knows very well that the rogue dog is every bit as serious and intent on grabbing the wrong prey as he is on the correct prey.

                            To the trainer, he seems more serious.

                            Those of you who don't think an electric fence will stop dogs should do a little google on coyote/wolf/sheep/fences and you will find that a properly constructed electric fence will stop coyote and wolves, so it sure will stop a dog.

                            But it must be done correctly.

                            For a three board fence, it will be easy to stop a dog.

                            I don't know how high off the ground the OP's bottom board is, but probably about 16", maybe less.

                            So one wire under the bottom board, 9 to 12" above the ground and another wire between the two bottom boards, properly grounded (very important) and no dog will enter your pasture...unless it is a big dog that jumps fences in which case a wire between every board and another just above the ground a couple of feet outside the fence (in the take-off zone) will stop a jumper.

                            As for invisible dog fence, people use that because they do not want to detract from the appearance of their home.

                            In my opinion, a bad mistake because it is not as powerful, it leaves the pet to the mercy of wandering dogs and it does not warn visitors and children that there are dogs present that might bite.

                            But that is completely beside the point for this discussion.


                            By "properly grounded" I did not mean that the wire between the two bottom boards should be grounded. It should be hot, as should be the bottom wire.

                            But the fence machine itself must be carefully grounded as described in the insallation instructions.
                            I wouldn't rely on it. You would. With something like a pasture, where grass grows up in a forgotten corner, tree limbs fall, etc...shorting out said fence- there is no way on God's green earth I would count on it as my main line of defense against aggressive predators.

                            That's all I'm saying. We can both be right.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                              I would not feel warm and fuzzy expecting a strand of electric fencing to keep a predator out of a pasture.

                              I just do not get owners who know their dogs are a problem to others but do nothing about it.
                              We had that neighbor. He told us face to face to shoot his dogs if they caused more problems.

                              We didn't have to. Someone else did.

                              Those people just blow my mind.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I would totally get a donkey.
                                I LOVE my Chickens!

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by CHT View Post
                                  In my opinion, if it is too dark to photograph the dogs loose, then it is too dark to shoot them safely.
                                  Evidently you are not aware that it is legal in many states to shoot varmints at night using infrared and ambient light magnifying riflescopes.

                                  So you are wrong. It is quite safe to shoot marauding dogs in the middle of the night using modern night vision optics available off the shelf.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    If the OP doesn't have the ability to capture a nighttime photo, I am assuming they do not have the night vision capabilities for shooting.

                                    I just get a little concerned/sad with how cavalier some are about discharging firearms at night in what sounds like a reasonibly populated area (sounds like a subdivision?) Particularly as the dogs would be running away (according to OP they run when she sees them), and how many people are really able to shoot a moving object in the dark and NOT be concerned about shooting something they don't mean to (like a kid sneaking out at night).

                                    And shooting the dog to kill may be legal, but hitting something else would not be.
                                    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by CHT View Post
                                      If the OP doesn't have the ability to capture a nighttime photo, I am assuming they do not have the night vision capabilities for shooting.

                                      I just get a little concerned/sad with how cavalier some are about discharging firearms at night in what sounds like a reasonibly populated area (sounds like a subdivision?) Particularly as the dogs would be running away (according to OP they run when she sees them), and how many people are really able to shoot a moving object in the dark and NOT be concerned about shooting something they don't mean to (like a kid sneaking out at night).

                                      And shooting the dog to kill may be legal, but hitting something else would not be.
                                      You can buy what you need at Cabelas, delivered right to your door tomorrow if you want it bad enough. Not having it *right now* is irrelevant.

                                      As far as the rest of your point, I make no claims about knowing the physical layout, population density, or legalities of shooting firearms where the OP lives. That's neither my business nor yours, it's hers only. She, I am sure, is more than capable of determining the legality and physical safety of taking a shot.

                                      I was merely advising on the technical issues of shooting at night, which is no big deal if you are familiar with the area in which you are shooting.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        We're in Louisiana. I'm pretty sure it's legal to shoot anything around here, but then again I've only lived here for half a year.
                                        That being said, I appreciate everyone's advice on guns/night-vision gun accessories, but I am nowhere near a good enough shot with a gun powerful enough to kill a dog from a long distance while it's running in the dark. My goal is to not have to get to that point. Like I said, worst case scenario the horses stay in.

                                        Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                        One approach is to see if the OP can get a "live trap" from AC and set it out for a few nights. If they catch an offending dog then they turn it over to AC, not the owner.
                                        G.
                                        This is a fantastic idea, and one I plan to employ.

                                        Originally posted by Valentina_32926 View Post
                                        Also - top your fence with hot wire - my neighbors pit jumped my 4 ft fence and has dug underneath it - so a bullet is my next step.
                                        Yea, while I was planning to add a line of hotwire to my Ramm fencing for the horses, it was only going to be to the half that they actually come in direct contact with (500'). The other 500' is my front perimeter fencing that is strictly there in case they break through the first line of fencing. So, another 1500' of hotwire (if I add two lines), plus 1000' of mesh wire, on top of the $20k bill I just paid for the initial fencing itself...
                                        Originally posted by katarine View Post
                                        Look, I would suggest not being reliant on hot wire. The repercussions of being wrong about its effectiveness are too great.
                                        all on the probability that these blood-thirsty herding dogs don't just blow through it in their quest to eat some pony legs....


                                        Originally posted by CHT View Post
                                        If the dogs' owner is also a horse person, did you discuss your worries about your horses with them? It could be they keep the dogs out of the pens because they like to eat the poo or something, and not that they are aggressive.
                                        No, I will admit that I have not asked directly. The time I discussed their aggressive dogs on my property, it was in relation to my dogs. I knew theirs were human aggressive, so I assumed dog-aggressive, and I was correct in that assumption when I spoke to them. However, one always grabs the dogs whenever a horse comes out of the safe enclosure, and when the horses were lose on my property, they had me wait with them so they could grab their dogs before I brought the horses back across the road. So while I am assuming, I feel there is strong evidence. And, when I talked to her about keeping them off my property because of my dogs, she assured me they wouldn't leave theirs, yet they still do. AC has been called more than once, I have talked to her myself, so I'm pretty sure nothing is going to change.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by morganpony86 View Post
                                          LOL; see the thread I'm about to start in off course regarding donkeys... I'm dying for a mini-donk or regular donkey but hubby doesn't think we can afford one...
                                          just a thought, but taking care of a donkey would probably be cheaper than the vet bills that could mount up from the damage it (the dog) could do to your horse.
                                          sounds like a good arguement to me!
                                          Last edited by luvmyapp; Feb. 7, 2013, 11:33 AM.

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