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How would you have handled this situation?

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Originally posted by mvp View Post
    Well, RTR, since you know PO organizations from the inside, then you knew, too, that you already had the PITA reputation from them.

    LEOs should be even-handed and professional at all times to everyone. But then you can't, in the next breath, start out-buddying the intruders by talking about who is better friends than whom with Sheriff Guy, Mitchell.

    Yeah, they should have popped the trunk since your roosters were missing. No, it would be uncool for your reputation to call them back about that now. No, the kid with the snotty face and hand is irrelevant. Yes, the condition of the perps' car is, too.

    Just wondering: How come you didn't call the celly first and firmly ask the intruders to come back from your pasture and explain WTF? If they get huffy, you can dial 911 then.

    You gun slinger/castle defender types: Since you have weapons that give you the distinct possibility of ramping things up all the way to someone dying and perhaps you going to jail, how come you guys aren't connoisseurs of reasonable escalation and the art of de-escalation?

    I don't mean to criticize. It's a serious question. My dad, the gun dude in our family, was gung-ho about using a gun only as the very, very last resort. Are others not so serious? What did I miss?
    There was no pissing contest over who knew who better. The intruders thought that if they threw out that they would call up the sheriff and get this taken care of, that I would back down and let them leave. They didn't seem to think that it was possible that I might actually know the person they were threatening to call, and they were hesitent to actually dial up the sheriff, but did so when they realized that I wasn't going to call off the police and that I was just fine talking to the sheriff.

    The condition of their car is relevant when it looks as if they are living in it and the condition of the kid is probably not relevant, but just grossed me out as he kept trying to hold my hand and was constantly telling me that he loved me and his mom said, "oh he likes big busted women". The kid is 6, 7 at the oldest and he "likes big busted women"? Really? Like I said, I left a lot of the conversation/arguing/strangeness out.

    I didn't call the celly because I am a female, I could see multiple people in my pasture and I had my mentally disabled brother who lives with me, with me, and if you had my neighbors, you would not be happily engaging anyone that came onto your property or politely calling them. You can check back in the COTH archives to follow the trials and tribulations, but I can give you a quick rundown. They have poached on my property, one went to jail for a year for illegally caught game when their house was searched after they were caught poaching on my property. They have shot at deer in my driveway, between my vehicles, across the pastures my horses live in. They have shot my barn cats in my pasture, or any neighborhood cat they thought could be mine, and told another neighbor that my barn cats were killing their chickens (which is a lie, I have free range chickens). They no longer have chickens, since the fox cleaned the rest out for them, but they still shoot. I've called the cops on them for shooting stray animals in my pasture, but it's my word against theirs without physical evidence of who did the shooting. They were investigated by Fish and Game/Police for being involved in a deer meat and catfish for meth drug ring- completely not kidding. Oh yeah, the catfish? Poached out of my pond right after I had it stocked. They don't work, but they bring home a lot of stuff late at night and early in the morning on a flatbed trailer that they hide in a barn near their property. They shine lights in my house at 2 am, spotlights. I could go on, but really, do I need to?

    Also, their car was not in my driveway. They drove through a field to back it up to the front side of my stables. The driveway curves around to my house and the side road goes to the doors of my stables. They were in a field.

    While I live in the country, the county police substation is about 15 minutes from my house.

    Maybe where you live, if someone gets huffy, you are able to say "hold on one sec while I call the police", but here, when things go bad, they go bad quickly.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

    Comment


    • #42
      FWIW, when I lived in TX, we had a pipe fence as well. Neighbor across the street had a stallion who did jump into our pasture. Repeatedly. As my old trainer used to say (in a Russian accent) "Any cow jump three six"--a motivated/frightened horse could probably clear your fence no problem.

      On to the trespassing piece...I think that I would've done exactly what you did. I would've taken pics, called police, recorded video of people on my land, etc. But I don't think I would've met them in the driveway. I think I would've locked myself in the house.

      As for their nonchalant attitude about the whole thing, I don't get it. Most everyone I know that has land has respect for other people's land. IE: You don't ride on, walk on it, drive on it, etc without getting consent first. But then there are a lot of folks who just don't "get" that. City folks mostly. (no offense to respectful city folks) These are the same types who pull over and feed horses without permission and get all pissy when you ask them to stop. Or the neighbors who dump their yard clippings over the fence as a "treat". They just don't get that it's not their place to do that.

      As for the LEOs...your experience is pretty much like the experiences that I've had when there's been an issue. I'm not that shocked.
      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

      Might be a reason, never an excuse...

      Comment


      • #43
        I find it mind-boggling that people react this way, with thoughts of violence and automatically calling police.
        The people in question weren't exactly sneaking around.
        The people in question did not act in a threatening manner.
        The people in question were trespassing, yes, and were clearly idiots, but they DID leave a nice note trying to explain why they were there.

        If they weren't looking for some lost item, what do you think they were out there doing?

        So if we accept that you can actually tell by looking at a car whether someone is down on their luck (I doubt this very much, some well-off folks keep their cars in quite a mess), isn't it possible that someone paid them to go look for the lost item? why else would they be there?

        what about this scenario warrants calling the cops, and getting guns, and talking about shooting intruders? nothing.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
          FWIW, when I lived in TX, we had a pipe fence as well. Neighbor across the street had a stallion who did jump into our pasture. Repeatedly. As my old trainer used to say (in a Russian accent) "Any cow jump three six"--a motivated/frightened horse could probably clear your fence no problem.

          .

          Yes, I'm sure some horses would/could jump my fence, but I don't think this horse would/could, and she didn't. The mare had never been on my property and was actually back at home before these people even trespassed on my land, so it's a moot point.

          I did just get off the phone with my city police friend and she is as unhappy as I am. She said that an incident report, or at least a call for service report, should have been filed, but that I could have filed trespassing charges on the intruders and the cop didn't even bother to ask if I wanted to. A few other things should have been done as well, but weren't. She said that normally she would tell me not to bother calling Mitchell about it, but she felt that since it is an election year, I should call him and discuss what happened and how it was handled. She said that if I didn't do that, write down all the information I have and keep it in a safe place so that if anything else should happen, it is easily accessible. My friend said to think of it this way- these people had no qualms about coming on my property and doing whatever they wanted, so now they know where everything of value in the barn is located, and exactly when I won't be home.


          On my way home yesterday I passed a car with someone waving at me. When I looked to see who it was, it was the intruders...
          Rhode Islands are red;
          North Hollands are blue.
          Sorry my thoroughbreds
          Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by wendy View Post
            I find it mind-boggling that people react this way, with thoughts of violence and automatically calling police.
            The people in question weren't exactly sneaking around.
            The people in question did not act in a threatening manner.
            The people in question were trespassing, yes, and were clearly idiots, but they DID leave a nice note trying to explain why they were there.

            If they weren't looking for some lost item, what do you think they were out there doing?

            So if we accept that you can actually tell by looking at a car whether someone is down on their luck (I doubt this very much, some well-off folks keep their cars in quite a mess), isn't it possible that someone paid them to go look for the lost item? why else would they be there?

            what about this scenario warrants calling the cops, and getting guns, and talking about shooting intruders? nothing.
            Wendy, I hear what you're saying. But A) it's trespassing, which is illegal. and B) serial killers come up with lost puppy stories. And "I'm here to talk to you about your siding, is your husband home?"

            Perhaps to you, it's hypervigilant to contact the police when a stranger is on your property. But for some of us, especially those of us who have been assaulted, robbed, etc, it's a gut reaction worth listening to.

            Even if well intentioned, someone who is willing to break the law and trespass isn't exactly someone I would "trust" to not be doing something else shady.

            This was not an emergency. These people simply disregarded the law and entered her property.
            A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

            Might be a reason, never an excuse...

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by wendy View Post
              what about this scenario warrants calling the cops, and getting guns, and talking about shooting intruders? nothing.
              Quite simple. There was an unauthorized and unrecognized vehicle parked in an unusual and remote location on private property with a marginally coherent note that does not make credible sense in accordance with the facts as presented.

              That's enough to raise the hackles on the back of my neck and proceed with an abundance of caution.

              It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
              Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
              http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #47
                Originally posted by wendy View Post
                I find it mind-boggling that people react this way, with thoughts of violence and automatically calling police.
                The people in question weren't exactly sneaking around.
                The people in question did not act in a threatening manner.
                The people in question were trespassing, yes, and were clearly idiots, but they DID leave a nice note trying to explain why they were there.

                If they weren't looking for some lost item, what do you think they were out there doing?

                So if we accept that you can actually tell by looking at a car whether someone is down on their luck (I doubt this very much, some well-off folks keep their cars in quite a mess), isn't it possible that someone paid them to go look for the lost item? why else would they be there?

                what about this scenario warrants calling the cops, and getting guns, and talking about shooting intruders? nothing.

                This was the 2nd time they had been on my land. They didn't say anything the first time at all and the note they left this time said they were looking for a horse and bluetooth when the horse had already been home for days.

                Maybe they weren't threatening, but the comments about the kid loving big-busted women and the dad saying "he gets that from his dad" while staring at my chest are not exactly innocent. Like I said, I left out a lot of things.

                I'm pretty sure someone looking to do you harm is not going to leave a note saying, "I plan on killing you. I'm in the lower pasture, so come down when you're ready to die.". I believe the #1 lure is to post information about a lost pet.
                Rhode Islands are red;
                North Hollands are blue.
                Sorry my thoroughbreds
                Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

                Comment


                • #48
                  Wanted to share this example...I was taught not to tell strangers if I was home alone, not to let anyone in the house, not to open the door for strangers, etc.

                  When I was a kid, we lived out in the country. One day, a young couple came to the door. My mom cracked the door. They said that their car had broken down up the road and asked if they could use our phone. Mom was home alone with 3 young kids. She told them she would be happy to call someone for them, but that they could not come in to the house. They tried to shove their way in. However at the time, we had a very big dog who flipped the heck out and scared them off. Mom called the sheriff.

                  Turns out, they had assaulted and robbed more than one place out our way over the course of a week.

                  I'd rather overreact and look silly than underreact and be dead.
                  A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                  Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by RacetrackReject View Post
                    I'm pretty sure someone looking to do you harm is not going to leave a note saying, "I plan on killing you. I'm in the lower pasture, so come down when you're ready to die.". I believe the #1 lure is to post information about a lost pet.
                    "I do not think you would accept my help, since I am only waiting at the top to kill you"

                    "That does put a damper on our relationship..."
                    Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
                    http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                      . . . Doesn't strike me as the next serial killer, yanno?
                      Ted Bundy anyone? Reputedly he was quite charming.

                      I think you have to have run into this sort of people before to develop the attitude - but once upon a time I had a very pleasant conversation with a guy who was passing me a bad check. Really nice guy, just happened to be stealing from me at the time.
                      Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                      Incredible Invisible

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Belg View Post
                        "I do not think you would accept my help, since I am only waiting at the top to kill you"

                        "That does put a damper on our relationship..."
                        Love that movie!

                        There is recently a pair going door to door in our town knocking on doors in the country. If no one comes to the door, they break in. If they find someone at home, they ask directions to the nearest big city... because, um, they are 5 miles off the interstate on a dirt road?
                        ::With age comes wisdom. Apparently "wisdom" weighs about 40 pounds.::

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Belg View Post
                          Quite simple. There was an unauthorized and unrecognized vehicle parked in an unusual and remote location on private property with a marginally coherent note that does not make credible sense in accordance with the facts as presented.

                          That's enough to raise the hackles on the back of my neck and proceed with an abundance of caution.

                          It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
                          Absolutely.
                          What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            wow, you folks must live in some really scary neighborhoods!

                            i would of called the number and talked to the folks.... and *then* decided what to do.

                            dont you think if they meant you harm they would not of parked in your driveway and left you a note?

                            <shakes head>

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              It's the sleepy "safe" neighborhoods where people disappear.
                              Heck, one of our school superintendants turned up dead this weekend. Found shot to death on his property line in a quiet rural area.
                              ::With age comes wisdom. Apparently "wisdom" weighs about 40 pounds.::

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by wendy View Post
                                I find it mind-boggling that people react this way, with thoughts of violence and automatically calling police.
                                The people in question weren't exactly sneaking around.
                                The people in question did not act in a threatening manner.
                                The people in question were trespassing, yes, and were clearly idiots, but they DID leave a nice note trying to explain why they were there.

                                If they weren't looking for some lost item, what do you think they were out there doing?

                                So if we accept that you can actually tell by looking at a car whether someone is down on their luck (I doubt this very much, some well-off folks keep their cars in quite a mess), isn't it possible that someone paid them to go look for the lost item? why else would they be there?

                                what about this scenario warrants calling the cops, and getting guns, and talking about shooting intruders? nothing.
                                Here, we live right by I-40, half way between Chicago and LA and they catch all kinds of illegal stuff going down thru here every day, drugs, human traffickers and stolen goods of all kinds.
                                Every single day that is in the news.

                                The last six weeks, there have been over 40 burglaries around here, some places been hit twice, the sheriff's office think it is a ring of travelers that will in a few more weeks move on.
                                They did catch one local fellow a week ago driving around with an empty stock trailer around 2 AM, but can't pin anything on him, he had not made his hit yet.

                                There are people driving around with any excuse and playing dumb, that we know are casing places and watching activity, like a friend's nephew's farm, that someone came in thru the back pastures on foot, while he was going to town for his daily radiation, he has cancer and cleaned his house and garage out, taking all they could take in his own pickup, that they later abandoned several miles away, after burning it down.

                                A farmer picked up someone on the expressway with a flat tire and his spare flat, took him to his house to get his spare filled.
                                The stranger killed him, took the farmer's pickup, that he traded for other stolen vehicle down the road and made it half way thru NM before he was caught.

                                Around here, you don't take people just driving or walking around lightly, not if you have any sense.
                                You take all the information and pictures you can and let the sheriff know, so they can better watch out.

                                There are no trespassing signs everyplace and if someone is trespassing, sorry, you better beware, don't just assume they are harmlessly lost, we don't live in that world any more.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Watermark Farm View Post
                                  Sometimes it's not possible. 20 years ago I experienced an event that changed my life when a man broke into my house and held me and my boyfriend hostage, a huge man who was very high on crack and powerful like a freight train. When you are dealing with an unreasonable or unstable person or someone who is on drugs and threatening your safety in your own home, there is no 'reasonable' approach, no 'art of de-escalation.'
                                  Ditto. I had a stalker when I was in my 20s and lived in Baltimore. I literally didn't know who this guy was or why he chose me, but he would 'stop by' while I was washing my car, knock on my front door at 7 AM on a Sunday to see if I wanted to 'go to breakfast' and drive past my house repeatedly. I found footprints all around my back door on more that one occasion. Oh, and I lived literally 200 feet from a police station. I'm not a nervous person, but the whole thing was making me extremely jumpy. The saving grace was that this guy was terrified of my German Shepherd, otherwise I'm confident I would have come home one night from work to find him in the house. My little sister stayed with me for a week and he tried to follow her in one afternoon, but got confused and left when he realized it wasn't me. This guy was seriously scary, I had NO idea of who is was or where he lived and it took WEEKS of my neighbors helping me out before we were finally able to get a licence plate number (usually he showed up on foot). I documented all the sightings and as soon as we got that number, marched out the back door directly to the police station. The desk officer told me I was lucky in that Maryland had JUST passed a stalking law. They pulled the guy in, I had to go to court with an attorney. The judge ordered a psych evaluation on the guy, who promptly lost it in court. Cops had to put a plainclothes officer in front of my house for 3 days. Moral of the story: Not everyone who can hold a conversation is rational or stable, even without the addition of mind-altering substances.

                                  To answer the original question: We're very rural, but since we've had a rash of break-ins over the past few months and since we also have client horses on our property, if I see an unknown and unexpected vehicle at the barn the first thing I'm doing is locking it in by locking the gates. The second thing is calling 911 and the third thing is going to my house and getting my dog and a rifle. If they left me a phone number I'd make calling that item #4, but they wouldn't be leaving the property until the police came and ran the licence plate. I don't care if the police are bothered by the dog and the rifle -- both are registered -- but at my age and gender I'm not going to take any chances.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                    wow, you folks must live in some really scary neighborhoods!

                                    i would of called the number and talked to the folks.... and *then* decided what to do.

                                    dont you think if they meant you harm they would not of parked in your driveway and left you a note?

                                    <shakes head>
                                    No, they weren't in my driveway, I may have misspoke before. They were parked in a field off from my drive and I saw them from my driveway. And why would they worry? If someone is going to kill you, you can't be a witness. The note is the same as "Hey little girl, want some candy?", a lure.

                                    You would probably be surprised at your neighborhood. Ever watch the news? There are stories all the time about people who killed whole families and lived in their house for weeks before anyone figured anything was up. How long was that little girl kept and raped in a storage building in that couple's backyard before anyone found her? Long enough to have 2-3 kids by her rapist. The tiny town where I grew up had 2 serial killers come through. One was caught in a hotel there and the other killed a family of 7 and buried them on the property, not a mile from my grandmother- Henry Lee Lucas.

                                    No, I don't think the worst in people and I don't think everyone is out to get me, but I'm smart enough to realize the time we live in, where people are poor and hungry and desperate. If these people had left a note asking if they could come look on my property, I would have called them and let them come look, but they crossed the line and I'm not sure how far over the line they are capable of going.
                                    Rhode Islands are red;
                                    North Hollands are blue.
                                    Sorry my thoroughbreds
                                    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by RacetrackReject View Post
                                      You would probably be surprised at your neighborhood. Ever watch the news?
                                      What scares me is the stuff that doesn't make the news. To heck with the news, marry a cop. That'll make you vigilant.
                                      ::With age comes wisdom. Apparently "wisdom" weighs about 40 pounds.::

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Child molestors have their stories...."I've lost my puppy can you help me find him?" etc. They don't all look evil (as someone said, Ted Bundy would have his arm in a sling looking pathetic.)

                                        Tresspassers deserve to manners or understanding. Criminals depend on the lack of awareness in their victims. It's why criminals ask, "What time is it?" Their victim looks down at their watch and is hit while his eyes are off the bad guy.

                                        Bad guys are bad guys. Protecting your life is worth having a gun and being willing to fight the goblins who want to hurt you. Remember the Coth person killed and her house set on fire several months ago....bad things happen everywhere.

                                        I was with a friend once who hit a car when parking. He had hit the door and left a note that said, "People are watching so I'm leaving a note...screw you". He laughed about it...I told the people he hit the tag number of the car (as a helpful annonymous citizen)...notes mean nothing.
                                        "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          One night, my husband (then boyfriend) decided to come visit me around 2am. He had recently had knee surgery, couldn't sleep etc... I didn't hear from him again until he called me from the Trooper station at 6am....

                                          When he went to pull out, there was a car parked at the end of his driveway. There were several high school aged kids sitting there drinking. They took off driving in the direction he was headed. A mile away they got paranoid and thought he was chasing them. At a stop sign they approached his vehicle shouting and threatening and tried to enter his vehicle.

                                          Failing that, they got back in their car and pursued him attempting to run him off the road or ram him. He headed out of town to lead them away from traffic while phoning dispatch on his cell... plus driving a stick (with a recovering knee)... plus trying to avoid them. There were no cop cars in the area able to respond immdiately. 20 minutes, and several miles later, he was able to lead these kids into an ambush.

                                          Now, if they had not decided to pick on a bull headed, sore, capable cop, but an elderly person or a kid instead. Who knows what they would have been capable of with a drunken gang mentality?
                                          ::With age comes wisdom. Apparently "wisdom" weighs about 40 pounds.::

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