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everything about wells

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  • everything about wells

    We intend to install a well at the barn when the requisite permission comes through. I don't know a lot about wells. It will be for barn use only. That will include horse water, dampening the indoor to settle dust, washing horses, water to the tack room, etc.
    Where is the best location for the well? This is an small indoor with a pretty large leanto for stalls, tack room, washroom, and shop. Our weather occasionally reaches 20 below F.
    How feasible is an old style hand pump that doesn't require electricity? What would be the limitations of having one of those?
    How would one connect automatic waterers to a well? I assume this would require an electric pump (rather than the hand pump?) Is there a certain size well pump necessary for automatic waterers?
    Is 4" well pipe the right size?
    Should the well pipe be steel? or is pvc better, or as good?

  • #2
    Wells

    I can answer a few of your questions.
    Steel pipe is better in the long run (you can pull the screen to clean it) and you can't do that with PVC. You will, however, pay more. And in order to have a 4" well, with PVC you need a 5" well.
    Placement: Where there is water! Ok, not your exact question, but where you put the well does depend on where you can locate water.
    You will need a pump. Not sure what you mean by a hand pump (we use no frost hydrants in our barn) but the water comes from the house and there is a well with a tank there.
    I have an autowaterer, (Richie) and you don't need electric to run it, but you do need a water supply that would require a pump. And you would probably need electric for a water heater to keep the autowaterer working. Mine does fine until the outside air is 20 for several days, then the line coming into the waterer freezes (unless there is a good layer of insulating snow around the waterer.) I also have a tank heater inside the waterer. But I love my autowaterer because I no longer have to deal with frozen hoses.
    Judy

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks! There should be pretty good water everywhere in the general area. The hand pump is the old fashioned pump that doesn't require electricity - like you might find at a national park.

      Inside the barn where the auto waterers would be should never get down to 20 degrees - even the indoor rarely gets there and that's when it's really cold outside.

      Comment


      • #4
        If your house is fairly close to the barn it may be cheaper to run a line from the well at the house. Wells here average $100 a foot and can go higher. There is a thing called a frost hydrant that may suit your needs.....pipe comes up from ground, has a pull up handle for on/off. Water drops below frost line so it doesn't freeze.
        Stables here in cold Wisconsin use them successfully.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Thanks. There are many reasons to do the well at the barn rather than running water from the house, one of which is that I probably couldn't get government permission to run a line and disrupt the ground.

          Ive seen that frost free hydrant and am glad to hear that it works well. That works with either an electric pump or an old-fashioned hand pump?

          Comment


          • #6
            Don't know where you are, but here, drilling a well is very expensive and serious, water is very important.
            Well diggers have to be certified and do a careful, excellent job of placing a well.

            Most recommend wells to be at least 100' from any buildings or pens or any such activity, to avoid contaminating the well.

            Wells today have an electric pump on the bottom of the well and the motor brings water from the water zone below to a pressure tank above ground, some in ground.

            That pressure tank is what then pressurizes the water so it will run thru the pipes to where you want it and you can have water on demand when you open a faucet.

            The kind of hand pump you are talking about only works for very shallow wells, is that what you are drilling?
            Hand pumps have a mechanical piston action with a small stroke that is what gives pressure to the water.
            When you pump that handle, the water comes out of the end of the pipe.
            That is time and labor consuming, but for a couple of horses, I guess that would be ok.
            I don't see how you could water an arena thru that hand pumping system with any reasonable amount of time and effort.

            Maybe if you clarify a bit more what you have in mind and what kind of water situation you have there, someone can come with a good system for you?

            Comment


            • #7
              Well ?

              And the hand pump would not work for the automatic waterers either.
              Judy

              Comment


              • #8
                --You really, really need to talk to a reputable potable water driller in your area because most of your questions are have an "it depends" answer.

                "Where is the best location for the well? This is an small indoor with a pretty large leanto for stalls, tack room, washroom, and shop. Our weather occasionally reaches 20 below F."

                --The driller will look at your terrain and aquifer, and tell you the cheapest location. Keep in mind that well tops you see inside buildings were drilled first, then the building was built around them. Drillers use large, very tall equipment that makes a mess, so it's not an indoor activity.

                "How feasible is an old style hand pump that doesn't require electricity? What would be the limitations of having one of those?"

                --Hand pumps are used for very shallow wells. Literally, where water is within feet of the surface (think those old-fashioned, hand-dug wells 10 to 15 ft deep). They have to be primed by pouring water in the top each time you use one, and it can take quite a while to fill a bucket. The only way you could use one for a whole barn is if someone was pumping constantly.

                The frost-free hydrants others have mentioned are connected underground (below your frost line, in a prepared drainage bed) to a pressurized water line coming from an electric water well and pressure tank. Once installed, you just lift the hydrant handle and water comes out the nozzle. You can attach a garden hose to the nozzle to fill buckets and whatnot. They're extremely common--I'm sure you've seen them around pretty much every farm, garden, etc.

                "How would one connect automatic waterers to a well? I assume this would require an electric pump (rather than the hand pump?) Is there a certain size well pump necessary for automatic waterers?"

                --A piece of homework you need to do is to figure out 1. about how much water you expect to use on a busy day and 2. what is the most water you expect to use in a very short period of time (filling all buckets, watering arena simultaneously, for example). Give that information to the driller.

                Water wells normally have an electric pump system to lift the water out of the ground into a pressure tank, or even a tank system. The tanks serve a couple of purposes: they store enough water that you can get water instantly, rather than waiting for the pump to pull from the well; they store enough water that the pump doesn't have to turn on and off as frequently (which is what wears out the pump); and it provides pressure to your water system so the water actually flows through pipes (to things like auto waterers). Obviously, all of this needs to be protected from freezing.

                Auto waterers will be a whole 'nother construction project. You'll have to run electricity to each stall for the heating elements, and you'll have to run water lines pretty deeply underground (below frost line) to each stall (line will run from the well's pressure tank to the auto waterer). I strongly advise you to work with a contractor who is very experienced with this type of installation, and to make sure he or she helps you design and install a system with plenty of failsafes. Such as, a way to isolate each auto waterer without shutting them all down in case one breaks and needs replaced. Particularly as cold as you said it gets, you don't want some friend's out-of-work cousin to do it for a case of beer. That would pretty much guarentee $$$$ repairs down the road.

                " Is 4" well pipe the right size? Should the well pipe be steel? or is pvc better, or as good?"

                --The driller will use your water use calculations with the quality of your aquifer to tell you what size well you need. Size, depth, screened interval, etc. are fairly unique design aspects from well to well. They can also discuss your material options, since that will also vary a bit locally.

                Brace yourself. What you're talking about is two separate construction activities, and neither will be cheap. And installing the auto waterers/hydrants, in particular, is going to have your barn torn up for a while.
                ---------------------------

                Comment


                • #9
                  We recently built a new house on our property, and will use the well for the former house. Our county regulations now require all the frost free hydrants to be a new type of non-siphoning hydrant. This is to protect us against "possible" bacteria. My pump guy says he has installed a few of them and they have all frozen in the winter, so he did not want me to replace the ones I have (5). He convinced the county health department to allow me to hang signs on all of them warning they are non-potable.
                  Long story short, the same regulations may be forthcoming for hand pumps.
                  Having grown up with watering horses with hand pumps, it may be something you want to avoid if there is a better way. But your well driller or pump installer can help you with this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here, 4" pipe in a well is mostly for large volume water needs, like irrigation wells run by large motors.
                    Many residential wells are on 2 3/8" pipe or so in the well and 1" pipe to service houses and barns, then reduced further to 3/4" for general plumbing.

                    WB is right, the drilling will need an open area for their rig and a return pit dug for circulating the drilling water, not something you want inside a building.
                    The well digger will watch what comes out of each zone he drills into until he finds a water bearing zone and then wait and bail until he sees if he has a viable well there.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You should probably ask your close neighbors the depth of their wells.

                      Around here 200 feet or more is not uncommon. At around $100 a foot
                      I wasn't always a Smurf
                      Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                      "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                      The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        This is great information, and I definitely appreciate your sharing your knowledge.
                        More information from here. To be legal, a well has to be at least 30 feet deep. Otherwise, the water is "surface water" and different laws apply. There is a lot of water in that first 30 feet, but the well will have to go below it.

                        I'm not seriously thinking of installing automatic waterers in the near future - but perhaps in the future. I had always planned to do the underground plumbing work for them before the barn was constructed, but didn't to that. But, I do keep thinking that the stalls are not yet in, and though they are stall units, they are seriously heavy things even without the wood - so sometime I get the crazy idea that it should just be done now.

                        At a minimum, the well would be legal for all barn uses, livestock watering, irrigating one acre. My plan for the barn is as an 8-stall barn, but could easily be a 12-stall barn.

                        So, the hand pump is out.

                        The water tank that was mentioned. I've seen that, but don't quite understand how that is put in. Does that water tank need to go under ground? Could the well be outside (I assumed it would be) and the tank above ground inside where the temperature is controlled? What size tank - I'm sure that is quite hard to answer without knowing more.

                        By reading the thread, I have a much better idea as to what a hydrant is. I'm just so ignorant in this area, that I don't even know what questions to ask a well guy.

                        Can you give me an idea as to how much electricity a well pump uses?

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I will ask my next door neighbor, but I think it's not deep. I know one neighbor has the very shallow well for her house, but that's no longer legal - and I wonder about the water quality for human consumption

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just had a well dug this summer, local regulation may dictate where the well can be placed. ours has to be 100 feet from any stucture housing an animal, run-in included, at least 10 feet from fence line and at least 30 from the road, had to go with steel lining due to high water table (hit water at 17 feet but had to go to 150 feet for a decent well, yield got 20 gpm!) sides kept "falling in" which make for muddy water and pvc wouldn't work as well in that situation. Put auto waterer in field, using one that works like a frost free hydrant, put 1 of those in also, so no need for electricity for heater, ran water lines to barn for wash stall, have tank and hot water heater in heated tack room. Best bet is to work with a well established driller familiar with your area and the regulations, it is expensive, and then a reputable plumber.
                            "They spend 11 months stuggling to live, and 25 years trying to die" my farrier

                            "They are dangerous on both ends and crafty in the middle"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I haven't had to install a full system--just wells. I can tell you that our water well is outside, some distance away, and the pressure tank, etc. is in the unfinished basement of our old farmhouse. There are underground water and electric lines between the two. So *that* part shouldn't be a problem for you, though you may want to plan to put a little shed or something over the well to protect it.

                              One word of caution about the frost-free hydrants and non-electric auto-waterers. Both keep from freezing by emptying all the water above the frost line (I'm guessing at least 4' in your area, given the temps you posted) back into a gravel bed in the ground underneath the pipes. Gravel (purchase, delivery, and installation, including digging a deeper trench) can get expensive, so people tend to skimp. And, then, if your ground at 5 or 6 feet deep doesn't drain very quickly, everything down there gets saturated with water...and freezes. If you're very unlucky, you'll also have to dig it up and fix something. That sort of unpleasant surprise is why I suggested someone local and *good*.

                              Once you know your expected water use, a good plumber can help you select and size the equipment you'll need. Just realize now that the vast majority of what you're going to have to install for horse-safe water is going to be the same (and cost the same) as a human system. Here, the only real difference is a final disinfection/flush and testing by the health dept. You still need the same equipment to deliver pressurized water to your barn.

                              One consideration on when to put in the auto waterers. Is the layout of your barn such that you can come back after the stalls are built--and in use--and have, say, a 1-1/2 foot wide by 5 foot deep trench going into the front of each stall (since they have to be underneath the waterer)? For several days? Even longer if the space is small enough you can't get a very large piece of digging equipment in there? If the answer is "uh oh", you'll probably want to get bids from a couple of reputable contractors. It might be cheaper overall--and a lot less headache--to at least install the underground lines (water, and either electric or a conduit it can be pulled through later) and drainage now. Once that's stubbed in, you can install the waterers any time.
                              ---------------------------

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Thanks WildBlue. That is very helpful (as all posts have been). The frost line is 3 feet. There is water at 5 feet so drainage will be very slow. I am sure I must have that gravel base. How big does that need to be. There isn't a "local" really because my property is unique - another reason that if *I* don't come to the project something about it, it will not go well.

                                As for the layout of the stalls - the fronts of all stalls have sufficient room for a trench immediately outside of the stalls but inside would be difficult.

                                SPF, your post absolutely settles the question of pipe - I was leaning towards steel, and it seems like the other is not even an option. Thanks also for the answer about the tank. So, then there is another pump from the tank to get the water into hose pipes or sinks or waterers?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Coyoteco View Post
                                  The frost line is 3 feet. There is water at 5 feet so drainage will be very slow. I am sure I must have that gravel base. How big does that need to be.
                                  Hmmm, *that* should be interesting! Do you have a low spot (such as a ditch several feet lower than your barn) you can run drainage to? Nominally two feet between frost and water might not be enough for this sort of system to work well, especially if you tend to get more water soaking into the ground late in the fall or over the winter--making that 5 feet of 'dry' zone even thinner. But, if you can encourage all that hydrant water to leave by improving your crappy natural drainage with field tile or similar, it could work.

                                  I hate to give you another "it depends" answer on how much gravel, but it depends. Each time the unit is drained, you're going to get another X amount of water (amount varies by unit) added to your underground leach field. So, each time a horse pokes the auto waterer or a human fills a bucket and then shuts the water off, it'll drain back into the bits of free space around the gravel. *If* you can run one or more drainage trenches to a low spot that'll get rid of all the water collecting at the base of your hydrants and waterers, you'll just need enough gravel to transmit the water. Something like that would certainly be cheaper than making an enormous underground leach bed to try to get the water to go straight down.
                                  ---------------------------

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by WildBlue View Post
                                    Hmmm, *that* should be interesting! Do you have a low spot (such as a ditch several feet lower than your barn) you can run drainage to? Nominally two feet between frost and water might not be enough for this sort of system to work well, especially if you tend to get more water soaking into the ground late in the fall or over the winter--making that 5 feet of 'dry' zone even thinner. But, if you can encourage all that hydrant water to leave by improving your crappy natural drainage with field tile or similar, it could work.

                                    I hate to give you another "it depends" answer on how much gravel, but it depends. Each time the unit is drained, you're going to get another X amount of water (amount varies by unit) added to your underground leach field. So, each time a horse pokes the auto waterer or a human fills a bucket and then shuts the water off, it'll drain back into the bits of free space around the gravel. *If* you can run one or more drainage trenches to a low spot that'll get rid of all the water collecting at the base of your hydrants and waterers, you'll just need enough gravel to transmit the water. Something like that would certainly be cheaper than making an enormous underground leach bed to try to get the water to go straight down.
                                    WildBlue, this is brilliant and helpful. The land is sloping. If I could just run the water out laterally, I think that would be ideal for the topography. There is even a creek nearby if that helps.

                                    All of these features on my property are what makes it unique to my area. Springs, swamps, creeks, and high ground water are not something that others around here have, especially when the land is not level

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      So, say the well is between 30 and 100 feet deep - I'm thinking it'll be a lot less than 100 feet, does anyone have a recommendation of a pump type or brand?

                                      I remember on the regulations that the well has to be a certain distance from adjacent properties and from other wells, but don't remember anything about distance from barn. I'll look that up again this evening. This thing about the drainage, though, will be very significant in the placement of the well.

                                      This thread has been so helpful, I can't even tell you how much!

                                      Thanks!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Your pump will bring the water into the pressure tank.
                                        That tank has a rubber bladder in there, some a diafragm, that the water pushes and so creates pressure, that is what drives the water out of the pressure tank into your pipelines to the house/barns.
                                        You don't need a second pump/motor to create pressure.

                                        Your pressure tank bladder will have air in it, generally about 22 PSI.
                                        The tank has a little valve like a car tire you can check the pressure with with a regular car tire pressure gauge.
                                        You can add air with an air horse if it is low, or let air out if you have too much.
                                        Generally, today the wellhead is in the open, in a place a well rig can get to to pull the pipe out of the well when needed and pipes go to the pressure tank, that can be in a well house nearby, as we have, or in some places inside the garage or barn, it can be placed anywhere relatively close to the well.

                                        That is how that part of the well system works here.

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