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Are Daily Dewormers Passe?

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  • Are Daily Dewormers Passe?

    I was just told at my local tack shop that daily dewormers are not recommended anymore. Has anyone else heard about the new regimen of doing fecals and treating with rotational dewormers. I thought I was doing the right thing by giving my horses the daily stuff, but now am questioning what is the best protocol. Any advice ??

  • #2
    Yup, and I honestly don't know why it took so long for the horse world to catch on:

    Bad things form immunities. There are only so many drugs that can be developed so quickly. We need to keep stuff as potent as possible, so that we don't end up back at square one. (Or worse, cause now the bad things are even stronger.)

    There's no new wormer in the works, as far as I know. We gotta make sure that the ones we have work as long as possible.

    Comment


    • #3
      GFG:
      I've gotta argue against that POV.
      Just last Fall my vet suggested I switch from rotation to Strongid.
      I have fecals done 2X year and have never had a problem.

      He is not Old School, on the contrary he takes a couple weeks off each year to get recertified & updated on the latest protocols at U of MI.

      You can bet I'll ask him about this when he's here next week for Spring shots.

      In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.
      *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
      Steppin' Out 1988-2004
      Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
      Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 2DogsFarm View Post
        GFG:
        I've gotta argue against that POV.
        .

        In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.
        It may not be your current practice, but I'm not sure how you can argue against the idea of resistances being built up...it's proven. That's why doctors are more and more refusing to hand out the drugs for the little things....there are only so many medicines out there right now, and until something new comes along, we have to work with what we have. Which means not overusing it.

        Edit: I guess if you could assure the horse had absolutely ZERO wormload before starting then daily wormer would be the way to go. But every day that your daily wormer doesn't wipe out every single gross thing, those gross things are building up a tolerance to the drugs.

        I guess you could argue that they just want to sell product...but the daily wormer is much more expensive than a couple tubes of wormer every year so that doesn't seem to really make sense. Not that Smartpak is at all unbiased, but they just put out a little "FYI" article about worming off of fecals and it mentioned that some low-shedding horses may just need to be wormed two or three times a year. That's not a lot of money for the companies, so it doesn't necessarily seem that profit is the only motivator.

        Curious though...did your vet mention WHY he made that recommendation? All three of my local vets are big fans of the "pull a fecal and then deal with the results" sorta idea, having moved slightly away from the every-two-months-rotation.

        Comment


        • #5
          The farm where I board my mare has gone to the practice of doing fecals and then worming according to that. My understanding is they will do fecals 1-2 times per year and worm 2x per year. This has just occurred so I haven't gotten all the details as to what wormer is going to be used. I also called my vet to be sure this was the current practice and they said yes.

          Comment


          • #6
            The best thing to do is get fecals done by your vet and worm accordingly. Getting fecals done once or twice a year will ensure that your worming schedule is working properly for each horse and they're not getting too little or too much.

            Daily dewormer is like taking a low dose of pain medication every day.. is it going to work the same months or years down the road as it did when you first started taking it? nope.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GoForAGallop View Post
              It may not be your current practice, but I'm not sure how you can argue against the idea of resistances being built up...it's proven. That's why doctors are more and more refusing to hand out the drugs for the little things....there are only so many medicines out there right now, and until something new comes along, we have to work with what we have. Which means not overusing it.

              Edit: I guess if you could assure the horse had absolutely ZERO wormload before starting then daily wormer would be the way to go. But every day that your daily wormer doesn't wipe out every single gross thing, those gross things are building up a tolerance to the drugs.

              I guess you could argue that they just want to sell product...but the daily wormer is much more expensive than a couple tubes of wormer every year so that doesn't seem to really make sense. Not that Smartpak is at all unbiased, but they just put out a little "FYI" article about worming off of fecals and it mentioned that some low-shedding horses may just need to be wormed two or three times a year. That's not a lot of money for the companies, so it doesn't necessarily seem that profit is the only motivator.

              Curious though...did your vet mention WHY he made that recommendation? All three of my local vets are big fans of the "pull a fecal and then deal with the results" sorta idea, having moved slightly away from the every-two-months-rotation.
              OK, here goes:
              1 - First off, I've pastewormed for more than twenty years. Just switched to Strongid last Fall. I am not arguing against resistance, I'll be supplementing the Strongid with paste for tapeworms & bots this Spring.

              2 - I work for a pharmacy & doctors are not prescribing fewer drugs than in years past - for instance the Z-pack is the same antibiotic drugs in concentration & is SOP for a lot of "little" infections.

              3 - My last 2 horses and the current ones have routinely tested negative for FEC.
              I have a small closed herd of 2 on my farm.

              4 - 2 horses pastewormed every 8 weeks @ $5-15 per dose (depending on product - ivermectin cheap, moxidectin/praziquantel not) vs $40/month for Strongid along with the ivermectin/quaziprantel I'll add for Spring.
              I agree not cheaper for me, but I have just 2. For the tack shop it means selling a lot of paste vs not so much Strongid.

              5 - One of my horses is a pony and moxidectin is not recommended for ponies. Vet brought up Strongid when I asked about alternatives for the pony.
              He cited a newer client with a herd of wormy ponies that turned around nicely using Strongid.

              6 -Like I said I will be asking him about the new worming protocol that is becoming so popular when he's here next week.

              I'm not trying to be argumentive, just think there are always 2 sides to a story.
              Will try to remember to post here after we've talked.
              *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
              Steppin' Out 1988-2004
              Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
              Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 2DogsFarm View Post
                OK, here goes:
                1 - First off, I've pastewormed for more than twenty years. Just switched to Strongid last Fall. I am not arguing against resistance, I'll be supplementing the Strongid with paste for tapeworms & bots this Spring.
                But the point about resistance is that a DW is becoming more and more useless. As well, it's now known that most horses only need to be dewormed twice a year anyway for bots and tapeworms, as well as the incidental strongyle. So simply based on that, the DW is a waste.

                The only way to have a chance at having the pyrantel chemicals effective again is to stop using them.

                2 - I work for a pharmacy & doctors are not prescribing fewer drugs than in years past - for instance the Z-pack is the same antibiotic drugs in concentration & is SOP for a lot of "little" infections.
                And that's sad, actually. I WISH there were fewer antibiotics prescribed, as they seen to be given out for EVERYthing

                3 - My last 2 horses and the current ones have routinely tested negative for FEC.
                I have a small closed herd of 2 on my farm.
                You're missing the point though There's no NEED for DWs, they are encouraging and prolonging the resistance issue, and you probably only need to deworm twice a year anyway

                4 - 2 horses pastewormed every 8 weeks @ $5-15 per dose (depending on product - ivermectin cheap, moxidectin/praziquantel not) vs $40/month for Strongid along with the ivermectin/quaziprantel I'll add for Spring.
                I agree not cheaper for me, but I have just 2. For the tack shop it means selling a lot of paste vs not so much Strongid.
                See above. The alternative to DWs is NOT to deworm every 8 weeks. It's to get baseline FECs to see what type of shedder the horse is, and deworm based on that, which for MOST horses, is just twice a year - Spring and Fall.

                5 - One of my horses is a pony and moxidectin is not recommended for ponies.
                But that's not a problem. Equimax, done. If you feel there is an encysted strongyle issue, do a Power Pack. BUT, there is a resistance issue with that now too, due to the long-used, OVER-used Panacur/Safeguard. But, I'm also pretty sure moxidectin is not contraindicated for ponies. The label even says "ANIMAL SAFETY
                QUEST (moxidectin) 2% Equine Oral Gel can be safely administered at the recommended dose of 0.4 mg moxidectin/kg body weight to horses and ponies of all breeds at least 6 months of age or older. "

                Vet brought up Strongid when I asked about alternatives for the pony.
                He cited a newer client with a herd of wormy ponies that turned around nicely using Strongid.
                Strongid - pyrantel pamoate, a cousin of the DW pyrantel tartrate - has high, widespread resistance issues, all over the world,, very well documented. That doesn't mean that a given farm doesn't have a resistance issue. But do not count on a one-off case like the vet cited as meaning you can use it effectively.

                6 -Like I said I will be asking him about the new worming protocol that is becoming so popular when he's here next week.
                It's not exactly new anymore, it's just sadly taking a very long time to get to enough vets. This "new" protocol has been around for more than 5 years, maybe coming up on 10.

                I'm not trying to be argumentive, just think there are always 2 sides to a story.
                Will try to remember to post here after we've talked.
                However, "sides" cannot be what happened with a single client, nor what a vet following 20yo protocols *thinks*.

                It would be a really good idea for you to sit down and watch the Strategic Deworming webinar at http://www.thehorse.com/Videos/Webinars.aspx
                It very well explains the resistance issues and why you should not simply deworm every 8 weeks, OR rely on DWs.

                I see there is a new series as well, with Part I just having come out May 3
                http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?n...part-1&vID=515
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by karlymacrae View Post
                  Daily dewormer is like taking a low dose of pain medication every day.. is it going to work the same months or years down the road as it did when you first started taking it? nope.
                  Actually, it's not quite the same. DWs work by preventing juvenile parasites from becoming adult egg-shedding parasites.

                  However, the resistance issues - most likely largely due to these factors: 1) under-dosing, as in, a scoop for all, even horses bigger than the scoop is sized for, 2) missing days here and there, and 3) the over- and mis-use of the double dose of pyrantel pamoate for killing tapeworms.

                  DWs are pyrantel tartrate. The pyrantel pamoate was, until the inclusion of praziquantel, the only way to kill tapeworms. So yes, it had to be used, but since under-dosing has always been a big problem, it contributed to resistance to the pyrantel chemicals in general.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 2DogsFarm View Post
                    In the meantime, I have to think OP's tack shop is just trying to hitch onto the latest fad & sell product.
                    So they're trying to get people to stop spending as much $$ in their shop?
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Simbalism View Post
                      The farm where I board my mare has gone to the practice of doing fecals and then worming according to that. My understanding is they will do fecals 1-2 times per year and worm 2x per year. This has just occurred so I haven't gotten all the details as to what wormer is going to be used. I also called my vet to be sure this was the current practice and they said yes.
                      Generally, it's going to be Equimax twice a year. If/when Quest Plus, or something else, ever comes back, you can use 1 of each.

                      Another option is regular ivermectin (for the bots and occasional strongyle) and a double dose of pyrantel pamoate (the 2 chemicals appropriately spaced) for the tapeworms. However, the more the pp is used, the longer the resistance issue with strongyles will go on.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        *** sorry, still out of stock!***
                        Last edited by fordtraktor; May. 9, 2011, 10:11 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No it says they will notify you when it is in stock if you click on the quest plus picture.
                          McDowell Racing Stables

                          Home Away From Home

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I do fecals. I board at a show barn and all of my horses are low shedders, only requiring deworming 2X/year or less.

                            The day we have parasites that are resistant to ivermectin is the day we're solidly screwed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That's the truth morgan! We need to treat ivermectin and moxidectin with great care, using them as little as possible but as often as necessary. And "necessary" just isn't that often for most horses.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Our vet practice just recommended we go back to rotational worming due to concerns about the buildup of resistance about a month ago. We did fecals and are making the switch.
                                **********
                                We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                -PaulaEdwina

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  What do you mean "back to rotational worming"? The typical meaning of that is the outdated way which has, in part, LED to the resistance issues.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
                                    I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well. I would think that targeted worm population would also be building resistance as well, but I've heard no calls for ending heartworm meds. Even consider the resistance of ticks to frontline and other antitick products - I haven't heard anyone say - hey don't treat your dog, let it get lymne, anaplasmosis etc because the ticks are developing resistance.
                                    As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
                                    i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion. Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by pezk View Post
                                      well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
                                      Even that scenario doesn't automatically mean a DW is necessary. Horses with high parasite immune systems are quite capable of keeping low loads, despite what's not done well around then.

                                      I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well.
                                      VERY different. The issue with heartworms is to prevent them from coming around at all. As well, with cats and dogs the goal really is to keep the worm load to *zero*. That is not, should not be the goal with horses. When doing cat/dog FECs, any count means deworm the animal. With horses, there are thresholds, with a certain count being quite fine to leave well enough alone

                                      As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs
                                      Those are not at all in the same category as antibiotics or dewormers.

                                      to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
                                      And one day we may well end up with lyme issues being resistant to doxy

                                      i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas
                                      It's not just "many areas". It's world-wide. It's HIGH resistanct - fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate have 75%+ resistance issues, meaning at best, you kill 25% of the strongyles.

                                      That does not mean this exists on every inch of soil. There ARE farms that have proven, through FECs and FECRTs, that THEIR farm does not have resistant strongyles. But one cannot assume a given farm is like that just because one down the road is like that

                                      but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion.
                                      Who said the animal's health is not being focused on? Absolutely an unhealthy animal has a weaker immune system which opens him up for a greater parasite issue. But not all healthy horses have inherently healthy immune systems when it comes to parasites. MOST do though, proven through study after study. Roughly 90% of horses tested in these studies only need 2x a year deworming.

                                      Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO
                                      Enough research HAS been done on resistance issues and immune function in this regard.

                                      Companies who make the dewormers did the studies to prove their safety and efficacy. Other research has been done showing that efficacy is now seriously in jeopardy.
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by pezk View Post
                                        well I use a DW on my horse because I board where horses come and go all the time. Her fecals have always been zero. the barn doesn't do fecals at all. Only rotational worming. If the horse was on my own property where I can control her environment then she wouldn't need worming hardly ever. But that is not the case.
                                        I don't see the difference between this and Interceptor for dogs. Given yr round to prevent heartworm and effective against other kinds of worms as well. I would think that targeted worm population would also be building resistance as well, but I've heard no calls for ending heartworm meds. Even consider the resistance of ticks to frontline and other antitick products - I haven't heard anyone say - hey don't treat your dog, let it get lymne, anaplasmosis etc because the ticks are developing resistance.
                                        As far as people - many thousands of people take some type of drug every day for the duration of their lives - many many yrs. Every thing from 81mg of aspirin to prevent/treat heart disease to many diabetic drugs to even doxy for chronic lymne sufferers etc.
                                        i understand we have a resistance problem in many areas but to focus solely on the worm and not the individual animal health is short sighted in my opinion. Maybe more research would be beneficial but I wonder how many of the companies that produce wormers spend much on research. JMO
                                        Here:
                                        http://news.change.org/stories/heart...ant-heartworms
                                        http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jul10/100701s.asp

                                        If you're not interested in actually reading, the general gist of it is that there DOES seem to be some resistance to heartworm meds being built up, but the contributing factors are not clear and more research/studying is going to be done before veterinarians start recommending a different course of action than monthly pills. But the concern is out there.

                                        Btw, ticks and fleas are a slightly different story, as they are not immersed in the medication and left to genetically alter themselves to build up a tolerance.

                                        But just out of curiousity...how do you see the "worming as needed" approach as not caring about the individual animal's health? Personally, I would rather just medicate my animal when it's needed, and not be dumping POISON down it's gut on a regular basis just to do so. From your statement, it seems as if you are implying that those of us treating worms off of fecals are not considering the health of our animals. I think it's the exact opposite.

                                        There is plenty of money being dumped into research...you have absolutely no idea how the industry works if you think Quest or Equimax made it on the market without millions of dollars worth of research.

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