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Farm dogs and horse poop- Do you worry?

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  • Farm dogs and horse poop- Do you worry?

    I have a young cattle dog who has developed a seizure disorder. Based on bloodwork, the emergency vet thought epilepsy. My regular vet is less forward on any diagnosis because I cant afford the amount of testing she wants done.

    She did tell me though that the seizures could be caused by worms because my dog sometimes snags a turd when I am cleaning the paddocks. Believe me the poop eating is very minimal and the dog is never outside without someone watching her, also my horses are on a regular deworming schedule.

    I went ahead and did the 3 days of panacure like the vet recommended. She told me a lot of their clients think its a miracle cure. Of course it didn't have any affect on my dog, just like I thought it wouldn't, I hate to think the worm loads other dogs were carrying to make them that sick.

    Anyway, does it concern you that your dog may eat some horse poop? Should I take it more seriously than I do?

  • #2
    I've had three dogs with epilepsy, none of whom ever ate horse turds. My lab supplements her diet with horse poop every day, no seizures.

    I don't worry about anything but the dumb beast getting impaled on the pitchfork when I'm picking up the paddocks, she's that fixated on eating the stuff.
    Click here before you buy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Since he is a cattle dog, you should have him tested for the MDR1 gene mutation, which causes sensitivity to drugs (ivermectin being one of the most common knowledge ones)

      Should you deworm the horses and he eat some of that poop he could die.

      Was it JSalem who had a dog do that? A poster here had a dog nearly die after eating manure post-deworming.

      Epilepsy is not an unusual problem in dogs. I would ask for a referral to a neurologist.

      DW:

      Edit: So long as he's not snacking on ivermectin poop with an MDR1 mutation I wouldn't worry about it. He should be on a regular heartworm preventive anyway and most of those nowadays take care of "regular" intestinal parasites too.
      Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
      Sam: A job? Does it pay?
      Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
      Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        The current vet feels strongly that its not epilepsy but wont say why other than she feels my dog was too young when the first seizure happened.

        It turns out I can do the test for the mdr1 gene myself and send it to the University. I will do that as soon as I can and not deworm with ivermectin until I get results. Thank you for the info!

        Comment


        • #5
          Brady, the golden: first seizure at 14 weeks. I'm not sure how vets classify epilepsy other than "repeated seizures", however.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            From what I understand from the emergency vet, who was great, its a rule out diagnosis. Her blood work was completely normal, negative heartworm test, negative fecal, no recent head injury, etc. She was 10 months at the time of the first one. The next two came together 6 weeks later. She is now on meds.

            Its possible that it is something else, she has developed some uncoordination and a slight head tremor/bob when she is overexcited or overtired. I am her 3rd owner and finally tracked down the original breeder who I think may have lied about a few things. But thats neither here nor there.

            Comment


            • #7
              Mrs Chickenbritches -- because you are new to the site, you might not know that Deltawave is a doctor, and Grataan is a vet, so their advice is worth considerably more than the average internet poster!
              https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
              Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
              www.PeonyVodka.com

              Comment


              • #8
                10 months is most definitely not too early for idiopathic epilepsy to rear it's ugly head! But I am glad to hear your girl is now on medication. Cluster seizures are very, very scary.

                The uncoordination could be due to the medication. The most common epilepsy meds are barbiturates and most vets put them on a loading dose to start. That's not to say that there can't be another cause, but idiopathic epilepsy is very common in dogs (5-7% across all dogs, ridiculously high in some breeds).

                A good resource for you may be http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/.

                Good luck to you both.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I used to own a Collie, so I had the ivermectin thought as well, though I think that base has been pretty well covered. Our Collie did not have the mutation, and could have ivermectin, but he had a sensitive stomach, and would get horrible diarrhea any time he ate horse poop. Thankfully he was an extremely obedient dog, so he learned very quickly that poop eating was not allowed, and it wasn't a big deal.

                  Tessa, my current mutt, is on completely the other end of the spectrum. She is quite determined to eat poop of any variety but her own, but has great intestinal fortitude. Never had a problem.

                  Neither of them ever had seizures, for what it's worth.

                  And I am not a vet or a doctor, so this is a purely anecdotal observation with a very small sample size.
                  Last edited by Wayside; Jan. 10, 2011, 01:19 PM. Reason: typos
                  "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                  -Edward Hoagland

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I appreciate the props, but I claim NO EXPERTISE at all on the topic of canine neurology! I've just had a lot of defective dogs.
                    Click here before you buy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also claiming nothing but anecdotal experience: we board at a big barn that allows boarders to bring their dogs. Have boarded there for 10+ years and have watched many, many dogs eat much horse poop (including 3 of my own). To the best of my knowledge, none of the regular dog-pack have developed epilepsy, or acquired horse parasites from the horse poop. We do get dogs with occasional tapes from the random dead things they find in the woods and pastures.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sometimes I think poop makes up a larger portion of my dog's diet than food does. Their life is an all you can eat buffet with horses, cats and goats. It appears as if cat is the preferred munchie but any will do. I try not to let them lick me in the face after we have been to the barn but other than that I have no worries. Animals are all dewormed regularly.
                        McDowell Racing Stables

                        Home Away From Home

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Thanks everyone for the responses.

                          I am going to test her for the mutation suggested this next payday. If it comes back ok then I wont worry about the snack time. If it comes back positive...is it ok to never deworm your horses with ivermectin? I've always had it as part of my rotation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mrs.ChickenBritches View Post
                            I am going to test her for the mutation suggested this next payday. If it comes back ok then I wont worry about the snack time. .
                            A dog can get ivermectin poisoning without having the mdR1 mutation, can't it?
                            I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Edit for clarity: The email addresses posted below are readily available to the general public on several websites. I'm not some random weirdo who goes around posting her colleagues' private email addresses
                              Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                              A dog can get ivermectin poisoning without having the mdR1 mutation, can't it?
                              Yes, but it is much less likely.

                              Originally posted by MrsChickenBritches
                              If it comes back positive...is it ok to never deworm your horses with ivermectin? I've always had it as part of my rotation
                              Not really, it is still a good broad spectrum dewormer. What I would suggest is you consider switching to a deworming program based upon fecal egg counts (you can have these done at a clinic or do them yourself at home, lots of info available on the board already about these) and when you use ivermectin, keep the dog away from the poop (don't bring him to the barn, or crate him away from the poop) for a while.

                              Originally posted by Deltawave
                              I appreciate the props, but I claim NO EXPERTISE at all on the topic of canine neurology! I've just had a lot of defective dogs.
                              I'm going to repeat what DW said, I'm large-animal only practice, just worked lots of shifts moonlighting in the animal ER during vet school

                              Originally posted by Mrs.ChickenBritches
                              Its possible that it is something else, she has developed some uncoordination and a slight head tremor/bob when she is overexcited or overtired. I am her 3rd owner and finally tracked down the original breeder who I think may have lied about a few things. But thats neither here nor there.
                              Please ask for a referral to a veterinary neurologist. There are several in your area:

                              Vancouver BC:

                              Dr. Nicholas J. H. Sharp
                              Canada West Veterinary Specialists & Critical Care Hospital
                              1988 Kootenay St.
                              Vancouver, B.C. V5M 4Y3
                              Tel: 604-473-4882
                              www.accg.com

                              Washington
                              kirkland

                              Dr. Sean G. Sanders
                              Seattle Veterinary Specialists
                              11814 - 115th Ave NE
                              Suite 102
                              Kirkland, WA 98034
                              Tel: 425-823-9111
                              www.svsvet.com
                              lynnwood

                              Dr. Karen L. Kline
                              VCA Veterinary Specialty Center of Seattle
                              20115 44th Ave., West
                              Lynnwood, WA 98036
                              Tel: 425-697-6106; 866-872-5800
                              Email: klinester@live.com
                              www.vscs.com

                              Dr. Jessica M. Snyder
                              VCA Veterinary Specialty Center of Seattle
                              20115 44th Ave., West
                              Lynnwood, WA 98036
                              Tel: 425-697-6106; 866-872-5800
                              www.vscs.com
                              pullman

                              Dr. Annie Vivian Chen
                              Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences
                              Washington State University
                              100 Grimes Way
                              Pullman, WA 99164
                              Tel: 509-595-7006 or 509-335-0711
                              Email: avchen@vetmed.wsu.edu
                              www.vetmed.wsu.edu
                              tacoma

                              Dr. Gerald J. (Jerry) Demuth
                              Summit Veterinary Referral Center
                              2505 S. 80th Street
                              Tacoma, WA 98409
                              Tel: 253-983-1114
                              Email: demuthj@me.com
                              www.summitvets.com
                              www.animalneurology.com

                              Oregon:
                              beaverton:
                              Dr. Steven F. Skinner
                              Oregon Veterinary Specialty Hospital
                              9339 SW Beaverton-Hillsdale Hwy
                              Beaverton, OR 97005
                              Tel: 503-292-3001
                              E-mail: SFSNeuro@aol.com
                              clackamas

                              Dr. Robert A. Kroll
                              Northwest Veterinary Specialists
                              16756 S.E. 82nd Drive
                              Clackamas, OR 97015
                              Tel: 503-656-3999
                              www.northwestvetspecialists.com

                              Dr. Tracy N. Prouty
                              Northwest Veterinary Specialists
                              16756 S.E. 82nd Drive
                              Clackamas, OR 97015
                              Tel: 503-656-3999
                              E-mail: tracester88@hotmail.com
                              www.northwestvetspecialists.com
                              Last edited by Grataan; Jan. 11, 2011, 02:08 AM.
                              Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
                              Sam: A job? Does it pay?
                              Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
                              Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I just remembered an odd "zebra" case I read about in a journal in vet school.

                                Patient presented with strange neuro symptoms which progressed into epilepsy like seizures. MRI was performed as the owner was employee of the VTH-patient had cuterebrae larvae in the brain. Surgery performed-patient recovered well.

                                They tell us in vet school and I'm sure they told DW in med school: if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras-which means think of the most likely diagnoses first-don't go dreaming up wild or exotic diseases. It really isn't odd for a young dog to have epilepsy. It IS odd for a dog to have a cuterebra in the brain in our area. (or at least it was when I was in school) Cats moreso, but now that I've piqued my interest, it seems to be more common in the NE/Canada and only in certain months (I have never even really been to the NE or Canada aside from Canadian Arabian Nationals)

                                It never hurts to ask a board certified specialist for his or her opinion, and I would NEVER be offended if one of my clients asked for a referral to a specialty hospital or VTH.
                                Last edited by Grataan; Jan. 11, 2011, 02:11 AM. Reason: For clarity
                                Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
                                Sam: A job? Does it pay?
                                Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
                                Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  My first puppy, not first dog, was rescued from a yard with an intact male and female with NO vet care. The first time she pooped I thought she must have eaten shoelaces there were that many worms in her poo!!! She never once exhibited signs of seizures, so I would hate to know how much MORE of a worm load a dog would have to have to cause seizures.

                                  I would think epilepsy, it's a lot more common in dogs these days. I would spring for the neurologist.


                                  Good luck

                                  LBR
                                  I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

                                  R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    MrsChickenBritches...best wishes that you get to the bottom of this with your dog.

                                    Patient presented with strange neuro symptoms which progressed into epilepsy like seizures. MRI was performed as the owner was employee of the VTH-patient had cuterebrae larvae in the brain. Surgery performed-patient recovered well.
                                    Grataan, you've been on here long enough to know to post an accompanying video of something like this, right?
                                    You jump in the saddle,
                                    Hold onto the bridle!
                                    Jump in the line!
                                    ...Belefonte

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                                      MrsChickenBritches...best wishes that you get to the bottom of this with your dog.



                                      Grataan, you've been on here long enough to know to post an accompanying video of something like this, right?
                                      Oh I would if I could but I can't remember the case very well. It could have been part of our neuro note pack, or I might have read it in the library, I can't even remember what journal it was published in. But if I had video, I'd youtube it

                                      OH OH OH, I found it (kind of) this describes what I was talking about feline ischemic encephalopathy

                                      Here's some video for you sickos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70tYi_NcLuM
                                      Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
                                      Sam: A job? Does it pay?
                                      Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
                                      Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        For those of you who know, how long does it take for Quest not to be a problem in manure?

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