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Companies that bully -- aka Organic Valley

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  • #21
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by Alagirl View Post

    b) I am not sure how pasteurized plays in, but homogenized milk is impossible to do anything with other than drink and cook...
    no, I have made many a batch of nice winter cheddar and farmers pot cheese with store bought whole milk with added cream (also store bought)

    but that fact would take away from the whole "majikal milk" fantasy, so I keep it to myself

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

    Comment


    • #22
      **shrug**

      I suppose since we can now buy enzymes by mail order, and bacteria...
      Originally posted by BigMama1
      Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
      GNU Terry Prachett

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
        **shrug**

        I suppose since we can now buy enzymes by mail order, and bacteria...
        you can get the rennet in any store...and it rests on the counter at room temperature...for years,I never did try cheese, as it's covered in the "only raw will do" bullshit marketing....

        but in truth,you can do it and it is really good stuff...I've made pot cheese,semi soft farmers,and waxed white cheddars (cause I didn't fell like dyeing them)...I only did not fiddle with the long(er) aged cheese as my fridge is tiny...

        Tamara in TN
        Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
        I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

        Comment


        • #24
          I love raw milk, but only if I own the cow and I am in charge of quality control. We kept two jerseys for many years but they produce too much milk and milking, even by a milking machine is a chore.

          Why do I love it?
          1) make quick cheeses, which are so easy.
          2) The whole family is lactose in tolerant and raw milk is completely digestable! Raw milk has lactose-digesting Lactobacilli bacteria intact, which allows people who traditionally are lactose intolerant to tolerate raw milk.
          3) It tastes completely different than pasturized/homogenized milk.
          4) The risk of bovine TB is very minimal. Sure there is a risk of salmonella, ecoli but with your own herd...well, I probably have the same risk just cleaning out my chickens and horses everyday.
          5) Seriously, when you look at the numbers of people who get sick from raw milk -they are very, very tiny and the benefits are great.

          http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_mi..._benefits.html

          That said, when you join a co-op, you agree to sell your product to that co-op. If the majority chose to make rules that you don't like you have two choices. Follow the rules or quit. One or the other. Doesn't seem unusual. We belonged to coops to sell our lemons and avocados way back when my family farmed in Goleta, CA. Same kind of rules. To do otherwise in this case, is undercutting the market -even if it is slightly different market. Raw milk is hard to come by. For many it is an added luxury. If they can't buy raw and organic, they buy organic.

          BUT there are probably some ways to get around such rules. One idea might be to set up an INC or LLC, that has only the the cow sharing cattle involved and another INC or LLC that has the OV co-op cattle. Keep your books separate. If one has a spouse or family involved, one family member is in charge of one set of cattle-LLC and another family member, the other set of cattle-INC. Another idea, keep it low key. If you put a big sign out "Buy your cattle share here," do you think the truck driver who picks up the milk isn't going to report back to OV?

          Business is business. If you watched Food, Inc., you know what the guy from Stonyfield said. The organic market has to be treated like a business. Otherwise, it is doomed to fail.

          But...Anyone who thinks that we can continue doing agriculture using petrochemicals as the basis for fertilizer isn't paying attention. It is only a matter of decades before this will no longer be an option. Yes, we will run out of oil eventually. Get used to it. Organic farming is just planning and coming up with solutions for our children's future.

          Antibiotics in our food supply have been the cause of so much death and disease in recent decades. Looking for alternatives is a must. As a nation, we can't afford to just keep throwing our newest, best and greatest Abs into our food supply. Unless we want new and improved strains of MRSA, ecoli, salamonella and other pathogens to continue to plaque our food supply, our pets, our wildlife, our soil and our livestock.

          And eventually, the risk of disease is what will drive this country to use other models for slaughter, such as mobile plants and de-centralized slaughter houses or who knows what. But right now, there is way too much meat getting recalled and way too many people being sickened and dying. These are not acceptable risk levels.
          Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Yes, but with organic, there is no data to support many of those claims and some data now against them, see the posted links.
            Never said otherwise. i was referencing the typical commercial farms with natural farming methods... NOT "organic". Our milk is not organic. the beef we buy when we get 1/2 cow at a time is not organic. The labelling of such has been so watered down and changed that it doesn't mean much anyway. However, both are natural -- 100% pasture raised. Sure when theyr'e sick they're treated. but raising this way means you dont' need AS MUCH because they simply aren't that sick!

            As for the incidents of sickness... let's talk about the last few food recalls, shall we? Commerical eggs from 2 or 3 farms in iowa -- there's no way you can tell me those chickens are naturally raised given that we're talking about over a BILLION eggs in the last report I heard! Couple years ago it was Lettuce, spinach and tomatoes from commerical farms. so compared to your 'data' on sickness from raw milk, how does that stack up?

            This is precisely why the local food movement is growing. People want to know where their food is coming from, how it is grown, in the case of animal products how the animals are treated. Really, a bioterrorist only has to find one of the handful of slaughterhouses in this country to wreak havoc on our food supply! I prefer natural and local over so-called organic anyday!

            Alagirl... that is EXACTLY why raw milk is beneficial. It can be digested better. I think it was hypocrates who said "all sickness begins in the gut." we're finding out that to be more true that one would have thought possible.
            ************
            "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

            "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

            Comment


            • #26
              TLE

              I completely agree with your last post.

              May I also add that we now have extremely accurate tests for pathogens that can be used for batch testing. There is no reason why each batch of raw milk can't tested before being sold to the consumer.

              Our government has sunk tons of money into quick, reliable testing methods for bioterrorism threats, it seems like it would be a "no brainer" to convert these tests into something usable -like batch testing raw milk for TB, ecoli, lysteria (sic?), etc before going to market. Except the USDA is a product advocate for the dairy industry, and will not put the $$$ into R&D for such projects that might jeopardize the sacred cow (American Dairy Assoc) and the small farmer can't afford to pay for R&D for such "on the spot" tests to become a practical reality. I think one day, it will happen though. Although, it will probably be first developed in the EU, where raw milk is more popular and easily available.
              Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by tle View Post
                Never said otherwise. i was referencing the typical commercial farms with natural farming methods... NOT "organic". Our milk is not organic. the beef we buy when we get 1/2 cow at a time is not organic. The labelling of such has been so watered down and changed that it doesn't mean much anyway. However, both are natural -- 100% pasture raised. Sure when theyr'e sick they're treated. but raising this way means you dont' need AS MUCH because they simply aren't that sick!

                As for the incidents of sickness... let's talk about the last few food recalls, shall we? Commerical eggs from 2 or 3 farms in iowa -- there's no way you can tell me those chickens are naturally raised given that we're talking about over a BILLION eggs in the last report I heard! Couple years ago it was Lettuce, spinach and tomatoes from commerical farms. so compared to your 'data' on sickness from raw milk, how does that stack up?

                This is precisely why the local food movement is growing. People want to know where their food is coming from, how it is grown, in the case of animal products how the animals are treated. Really, a bioterrorist only has to find one of the handful of slaughterhouses in this country to wreak havoc on our food supply! I prefer natural and local over so-called organic anyday!

                Alagirl... that is EXACTLY why raw milk is beneficial. It can be digested better. I think it was hypocrates who said "all sickness begins in the gut." we're finding out that to be more true that one would have thought possible.
                You forgot one little detail, that you can buy LOCAL any day, as long as you don't demand it have other labels, like organic/natural/comes with it's own rainbows, etc.

                With raw milk, you are stacking the deck against you when you use it, compared with pasteurized or whatever way they prefer to sanitize milk.

                Sure, there are recalls from conventional produce, but that just tells you the system is working, because from the billions of eggs sold without trouble, someone dropped the ball somewhere with some eggs and there were some contaminated AND people didn't wash their hands or cooked them properly, which they should anyway, no matter where they come from.
                No one is saying conventional farming is perfect, but many are saying organic etc. is much better.
                Prove it, the data, no matter how you measure and we are getting more and more now, is against it.
                That was my point.

                Here is one sad example how data is not only not used properly, but completely ignored by those that jumped on the anti agriculture and animal use wagons and those that love the controversy those cause:

                http://www.drovers.com/news_editoria...d=20411&ts=nl1

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                  You forgot one little detail, that you can buy LOCAL any day, as long as you don't demand it have other labels, like organic/natural/comes with it's own rainbows, etc.
                  Not for some things in some states.

                  With raw milk, you are stacking the deck against you when you use it, compared with pasteurized or whatever way they prefer to sanitize milk.
                  Yeah, not seeing that. Not saying it's perfect. Of course it's not, nothing is. But when a couple people get sick from raw milk, compared to hundreds from the latest commercial whatever.... looks like the numbers are roughly even imho. and either way, still far better than driving a car to work everyday.

                  Sure, there are recalls from conventional produce, but that just tells you the system is working, because from the billions of eggs sold without trouble, someone dropped the ball somewhere with some eggs and there were some contaminated AND people didn't wash their hands or cooked them properly, which they should anyway, no matter where they come from.
                  No one is saying conventional farming is perfect, but many are saying organic etc. is much better.
                  Prove it, the data, no matter how you measure and we are getting more and more now, is against it.
                  That was my point.
                  However, *I* never said that. I may have implied it because I do believe that NATURAL (not organic) is better. that is my belief and it is how we plan to raise our food on our farm. But if you don't want to go that way, that's fine by me. Data or not, we're both free to do as we want... well... you are and I'm partially able since I cannot legally purchase raw milk and have to own the cow instead.

                  As for the article... there is ZERO disagreement in our respective POVs on the people represented in that article. I detest PETA for this precise thing.
                  ************
                  "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                  "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Yuck! I've worked on a dairy farm for 3 years, and I still won`t drink the milk out of the tank. Has nothing to do with drugs/treatment/etc, it just grosses. me. out.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by tle View Post
                      Not for some things in some states.

                      Yeah, not seeing that. Not saying it's perfect. Of course it's not, nothing is. But when a couple people get sick from raw milk, compared to hundreds from the latest commercial whatever.... looks like the numbers are roughly even imho. and either way, still far better than driving a car to work everyday.

                      A couple of people from a dozen people that use raw milk is a big percentage, when compared with a few hundred of millions that use pasteurized milk, I would say.
                      That is why there is concern, the chances of getting sick from raw milk are way larger, by an unacceptable percentage, to those in the health regulation business.




                      However, *I* never said that. I may have implied it because I do believe that NATURAL (not organic) is better. that is my belief and it is how we plan to raise our food on our farm. But if you don't want to go that way, that's fine by me. Data or not, we're both free to do as we want... well... you are and I'm partially able since I cannot legally purchase raw milk and have to own the cow instead.

                      As for the article... there is ZERO disagreement in our respective POVs on the people represented in that article. I detest PETA for this precise thing.
                      My point is that we are doing all a disservice by pitting any one way we raise food against the other and that is what those on the organic/natural and such labels have done for a couple of decades now.
                      Now that conventional food production is checking their claims of food produced under those labels being so much better and finding them lacking, they are being attacked again?
                      I see something a little bit wrong with that.
                      We are in the middle of it in our beef industry and this new administration, loaded with those kind of outlier people and the new regulations on marketing they are trying to impose.

                      All I will say, you throw the baby away with the bathwater at your own peril, because there are more and more people to feed in this world and it is going to take all to get that done, short of something killing a big buch of us first.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        [QUOTE]
                        Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        because from the billions of eggs sold without trouble, someone dropped the ball somewhere with some eggs and there were some contaminated AND people didn't wash their hands or cooked them properly, which they should anyway, no matter where they come from.
                        bear in mind also the man that ran the egg farm in question was banned from farming in Iowa <?> because he was so nasty in his Mgmt practices and managed to get around the ban by having business partners form the farm and he bought it from them later

                        nasty is as nasty does and he was already barred from farming once...but he does not give as big rats ass to begin with...most farmers do or they would have nice subdivision jobs...like phone answering or retail
                        http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...large-egg-farm

                        Tamara in TN
                        Last edited by Tamara in TN; Sep. 9, 2010, 02:32 PM.
                        Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                        I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          40 years ago we had a small goat dairy and sold to some local families in town, some their Dr had recommended they change to goat's milk.
                          As far as I know, everyone, as they did in those days, did boil their milk, didn't use it raw.
                          You just knew to do that.
                          Then new regulations required that everyone pasteurize milk to be able to sell it.
                          We didn't want to go thru that trouble and expense and quit milking, but understood the reasons for it.
                          You don't want even one person to get sick from what you sell, especially if there is a rather easy way to prevent it.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            "Incidence extrapolations for USA for Salmonella food poisoning:

                            1,400,000 per year, 116,666 per month, 26,923 per week, 3,835 per day, 159 per hour, 2 per minute, 0 per second. [Source statistic for calculation: "estimated 1.4 million cases (CDC estimate/NIAID, many unreported)" -- CDC data

                            "Shell eggs (SE) are the predominant source of SE-
                            related cases of salmonellosis in the United States where a food vehicle is identified (a food vehicle is identified in approximately half of the outbreaks of illness associated with SE). Between 1985 and 2002, a total of 53 percent of all SE illnesses identified through CDC outbreak surveillance are attributable to eggs. Where a vehicle of transmission was identified, 81 percent of outbreaks and 79 percent of illnesses identified through outbreaks were attributed to eggs (Ref. 17). These data are in accord with a published analysis by CDC researchers..."
                            http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/P.../ucm170746.htm

                            This outbreak is not an isolated incidence. The things that were different about this recall is that 1) the Salmonella was discovered and tracked to production 2) there was a recall 3) it was a huge number of eggs and 4) it made headline news.
                            Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                              A couple of people from a dozen people that use raw milk is a big percentage, when compared with a few hundred of millions that use pasteurized milk, I would say.
                              That is why there is concern, the chances of getting sick from raw milk are way larger, by an unacceptable percentage, to those in the health regulation business.
                              Well, we're arguing silliness now because there ARE more than "a dozen"... MUCH more. I get what you're saying, but knowing the people we know... I could count SEVERAL dozen just in that group that are or would buy raw milk on a regular basis if it were readily available. it's a bigger group than you think.


                              All I will say, you throw the baby away with the bathwater at your own peril, because there are more and more people to feed in this world and it is going to take all to get that done, short of something killing a big buch of us first.
                              I see what you're saying. However... what sense does it make if the food, while readily available, is doing a disservice to the population whether through lack of nutrition or its effects on the earth and future production? Shouldn't we be finding a better way to do it? We have TONS of readily available, inexpensive food available for the masses. Is it really quality nutrition? yes it will give a person calories, but does it really FEED the body the way the body was intended to be fed?

                              At current, yes, there is room for any farmer wishing to feed anyone... whether on a mass scale commercial/industrial type of farm... or a small scale local natural type of farm. both are certainly needed in the world today. We met a guy at an ODA sponsored meeting a couple months ago that literally wants to feed the world (has talked to the ambassador to Cuba I beleive about exporting his pork). I know other farmers, and I include us in this one, that simply want to provide their own families and neighbors with locally grown, naturally raised food.

                              I'm not sure I'm making sense anymore. I see a need for both right now. I believe in the benefits of naturally raised foods and that includes raw milk. I've seen the proof of what a natural diet can do for the body (if only I had the willpower to follow it myself ). While you don't want me throwing the baby out with the bath water because of the need for feeding the world, why is the baby sacrificed when people want to eat a more natural product like raw milk? Why are the small local farmers at the mercy of the large ones? they have similar but not identical goals.

                              Going to stop now... rambling and not sure I'm making sense. I apologize for that.
                              ************
                              "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                              "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Cielo Azure View Post
                                "Incidence extrapolations for USA for Salmonella food poisoning:

                                1,400,000 per year, 116,666 per month, 26,923 per week, 3,835 per day, 159 per hour, 2 per minute, 0 per second. [Source statistic for calculation: "estimated 1.4 million cases (CDC estimate/NIAID, many unreported)" -- CDC data

                                "Shell eggs (SE) are the predominant source of SE-
                                related cases of salmonellosis in the United States where a food vehicle is identified (a food vehicle is identified in approximately half of the outbreaks of illness associated with SE). Between 1985 and 2002, a total of 53 percent of all SE illnesses identified through CDC outbreak surveillance are attributable to eggs. Where a vehicle of transmission was identified, 81 percent of outbreaks and 79 percent of illnesses identified through outbreaks were attributed to eggs (Ref. 17). These data are in accord with a published analysis by CDC researchers..."
                                http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/P.../ucm170746.htm

                                This outbreak is not an isolated incidence. The things that were different about this recall is that 1) the Salmonella was discovered and tracked to production 2) there was a recall 3) it was a huge number of eggs and 4) it made headline news.
                                Need to add to that food is not 100% without risk, nothing in life is, you can trip over your own feet in the kitchen and hit your head on the counter while falling and die.

                                Part of the reason eggs are one source of contamination and I have read studies where free range eggs were even more of a risk, is because eggs can be naturally contaminated and because of PEOPLE not handling them properly.
                                Commercial egg operations are trying to minimize that problem with eggs, but as seen, they can't always.
                                Having and consuming safe produce is a job for all, from the producer to the consumer.

                                That is the possible problem with raw milk, that it can be so easily contaminated and processing it will make it SAFE:

                                http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesFor.../ucm079516.htm

                                ---""Pasteurized Milk" Explained
                                Pasteurization is a process that kills harmful bacteria by heating milk to a specific temperature for a set period of time. First developed by Louis Pasteur in 1864, pasteurization kills harmful organisms responsible for such diseases as listeriosis, typhoid fever, tuberculosis, diphtheria, and brucellosis.

                                Research shows no meaningful difference in the nutritional values of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk. Pasteurized milk contains low levels of the type of nonpathogenic bacteria that can cause food spoilage, so storing your pasteurized milk in the refrigerator is still important.

                                Raw Milk & Pasteurization: Debunking Milk Myths
                                While pasteurization has helped provide safe, nutrient-rich milk and cheese for over 120 years, some people continue to believe that pasteurization harms milk and that raw milk is a safe healthier alternative.

                                Here are some common myths and proven facts about milk and pasteurization:

                                Pasteurizing milk DOES NOT cause lactose intolerance and allergic reations. Both raw milk and pasteurized milk can cause allergic reactions in people sensitive to milk proteins.
                                Raw milk DOES NOT kill dangerous pathogens by itself.
                                Pasteurization DOES NOT reduce milk's nutritional value.
                                Pasteurization DOES NOT mean that it is safe to leave milk out of the refrigerator for extended time, particularly after it has been opened.
                                Pasteurization DOES kill harmful bacteria.
                                Pasteurization DOES save lives."---



                                Warts and all, we still here have one of the most aboundant, safe, varied and on demand food produce available to us in the whole world.
                                Go see how so much of the world lives and what their food availability, production and consumptions is.

                                It is good to keep pushing, but also to understand why we are where we are with what we have and the regulations we have to abide by.

                                I do think that this dairy conflict now is more about business practices than the safety of food.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  I'd love to see the studies that free range eggs are worse in terms of disease possibilities. Really???

                                  Quoting the FDA doesn't really help in my eyes. Sorry... too much "industry" interference.

                                  Pasteurization may not CAUSE lactose intolerance, but it certainly doesn't help it. There IS a change in the milk protein that makes pasteurized milk harder to digest than raw. for the a similar reason that goats milk is easier to digest than cow.

                                  If by Pasteurization does not diminsh nutritional value you mean that all else considered equal, perhaps. However, the fact that pasteurization DOES make it harder to digest means that the nutritional values aren't getting to your body as much... so the statement is amatter of semantics.

                                  "Warts and all, we still here have one of the most aboundant, safe, varied and on demand food produce available to us in the whole world.
                                  Go see how so much of the world lives and what their food availability, production and consumptions is."

                                  Abundant... yes.
                                  Safe... relative, IMHO, but I'll give you it's safeR
                                  Varied... hmmm... how much of what we produce now has corn or some corn product in it?
                                  On Demand... sure. It's easy to have On Demand food when it's got so many chemicals and such in it. Hell... i don't think there's any real FOOD in a Twinkie but you can certainly get one whenever you want.

                                  I'm not saying other places are necessarily better. Every place has their faults of one type or another. But I do think our abundant, corn-produced, chemical laden food really is PART (note part, not all) of the disease issues that are so abundantly found in our society today. We've managed to kill off certain diseases with progress... but I think we've created new ones... they're just slow to show up and slow to harm us.
                                  ************
                                  "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                  "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

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                                  • #37
                                    ---"I'd love to see the studies that free range eggs are worse in terms of disease possibilities. Really???

                                    Quoting the FDA doesn't really help in my eyes. Sorry... too much "industry" interference."---

                                    Yes, really and you would understand why, when you realize where range chickens "roam" and what all they peck.

                                    Won't do any good to present any studies, you won't believe them.
                                    Those were recent, in the past months.
                                    People started questioning all this a few years ago, if what was assumed and that some used to market their products was right.
                                    They started doing those studies and surprise, plenty assumed was wrong.

                                    That there is more contaminants in free range and other such is really common sense and doesn't make them "bad", just that people that buy them need to be sensible and treat them like any other food, keep everything clean and properly cooked when cooking is necessary.

                                    Here is some more about this, but you have to fish for the important parts, hopefully with an unbiased mind, not just looking for what suits your preconceptions.
                                    There is enough ammunition for all sides of the debate here:

                                    http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/f...sC.shtml#BuyC5

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                                    • #38
                                      Yes, our food supply is - all things considered - safe.

                                      Could it be safer? Yes.
                                      Could it be worse? heck yeah.

                                      Pasteurizing milk was a great step for man kind, no doubt.

                                      Heck, even the laying hen batteries were a huge step forward, believe it or not.

                                      People have forgotten how this farm life thing works. There is dirt, lots of it.

                                      I suppose once we removed ourselves from the farm we had to come up with ways to clean up our food source: City folk are no longer exposed to that kind of germs, they get gravely ill over it.

                                      I do believe I have read that Polio did not become an acute issue until cities started to clean up streets from excrement and such filth.
                                      Last edited by Alagirl; Sep. 9, 2010, 09:53 PM. Reason: shpellin mitakes
                                      Originally posted by BigMama1
                                      Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                      GNU Terry Prachett

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        [QUOTE=Tamara in TN;5088741]

                                        no, I have made many a batch of nice winter cheddar and farmers pot cheese with store bought whole milk with added cream (also store bought)

                                        but that fact would take away from the whole "majikal milk" fantasy, so I keep it to myself

                                        Tamara in TN
                                        Want to PM me how you make it?

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          [QUOTE=Couture TB;5089788]
                                          Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post

                                          Want to PM me how you make it?
                                          I can.

                                          ETA: no!
                                          ya know what?? anyone should get to make cheese at home and not with "majikal milk" either

                                          so here you go, it's the online chesse bible I use...any questions on details just pm me....
                                          http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/cheese/cheese.html

                                          Tamara in TN
                                          Last edited by Tamara in TN; Sep. 9, 2010, 11:03 PM.
                                          Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                          I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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