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Dogs and Ivermectin--Great outcome! post 41

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  • #21
    Jingles for your friend's aussie! My border collie/aussie cross survived ivermectin toxicosis. She was in ICU for 10 days (completely ataxic, went blind, etc), but seemed to make a complete recovery! The best they can really do is supportive therapy until the drug unbinds from the receptors in the brain. This happened 5+ years ago, and I don't think she had any lasting effects whatsoever.

    I ended up having my dog tested for the MDR1 mutation just to see if she was homozygous or heterozygous for it (and, that I'm a big science geek ). There were some reports at the time that the heterozygotes are also sensitive but just not to the same degree as the homozygous ones, so I just wanted to correlate her response with her genetics.

    Keep us posted!

    Comment


    • #22
      Poor baby! It's definately true that all vets do NOT know about ivermectin and collies/aussies. I have a border/hound mix, so to be safe I wanted a flea/tick preventitive without ivermectin. Our area (up untill the last 2 years) was pratically tick free, so the vet didn't know about this! I had to ask him for a different preventitive twice.
      .

      Comment


      • #23
        This happened to my aussie, Sidda, three years ago. First, she is FINE!!! She was in ICU at the vet school for five days, with seizure and vision loss. They said it might take months for her vision to return, but she could see well enough to get around within a week. I'd say she came back about 95%. That was such a scary time. Give your friend some hugs for me, and tell her that there is plenty of hope.




        Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
        I have a friend who's dear Aussie picked up just a few dropped grains on a worming day and ended up spending the weekend in the emergency clinic. She's hanging in so far, sedated and on seizure meds. Anyone have any good-outcome stories to share? We're all really worried. This is one of the most tightly run barns I know of, a total accident, but s%&t happens ...

        Comment


        • #24
          Great post Mafia.. many people don't realize it can happen in MANY breeds. The only way to know is to have your dog tested, if its been found in your breed.

          Originally posted by bridgetah1 View Post
          My dog made a full recovery. DNA testing showed that she was a sheltie/GSD mix.
          .
          Just wanted to point out that that sort of DNA testing is NOT reliable in the least (I can explain that if anyone cares..) but there is no way to be even remotely accurate with that sort of DNA testing. We can't even say what race a human is, with our very large data bases let a lone what breed a dog is. That and there are some very hilarious results. People have had pure bred championship dogs tested come back with VERY funny results. I personally know quite a few people who's dogs came back very wrong. A short haired large built black 80 pound dog, came back primarily maltese.


          Even if the test was accurate (they do get it right on occasion lol) the only sort of DNA testing that will help you is ones that look for the MDR1 gene, which is the gene that causes the problem.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Aven View Post
            Just wanted to point out that that sort of DNA testing is NOT reliable in the least (I can explain that if anyone cares..) but there is no way to be even remotely accurate with that sort of DNA testing. We can't even say what race a human is, with our very large data bases let a lone what breed a dog is. That and there are some very hilarious results. People have had pure bred championship dogs tested come back with VERY funny results. I personally know quite a few people who's dogs came back very wrong. A short haired large built black 80 pound dog, came back primarily maltese.


            Even if the test was accurate (they do get it right on occasion lol) the only sort of DNA testing that will help you is ones that look for the MDR1 gene, which is the gene that causes the problem.
            I'm a little surprised at your initial statement. After all, DNA testing is widely used w/horses? And, I read recently that some law enforcement agencies are going to use DNA testing to identify known fighting lines in dogs seized in dog fights.

            I think the test was accurate, given the appearance of the dog and her behavior. I didn't test for the MDR1 gene, there is no reason to do that. I just wanted to know what she was, and had her tested towards the end of her life. She was black and looked like a smallish Belgian sheepdog. The obedience trainer I worked with thought that she was at least half border collie.

            Another dog's test results seemed very much off the mark. They re-tested him (free) and came back w/similar results but w/some additional information. Mind you, the dog was a mix and the results were incomplete. By size and appearance he was at least part chihuahua. That did not show up.

            The geneticist agreed that he looked like a chihuahua, and quite likely was part chihuahua. However, the lab's database came from the AKC registry. This dog was a little mix from the San Jose area. There are a lot of chihuahuas down there, many of them from Mexico. So, that may explain it, who knows.
            Last edited by bridgetah1; Aug. 17, 2010, 12:22 AM. Reason: typo

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by bridgetah1 View Post
              I'm a little surprised at your initial statement. After all, DNA testing is widely used w/horses? And, I read recently that some law enforcement agencies are going to use DNA testing to identify known fighting lines in dogs seized in dog fights.

              I think the test was accurate, given the appearance of the dog and her behavior. I didn't (and won't) test for the MDR1 gene, there is no reason to do that. I just wanted to know what she was, and had her tested towards the end of her life. She was black and looked like a smallish Belgian sheepdog. The obedience trainer I worked with thought that she was at least half border collie.

              Another dog's test results seemed very much off the mark. They re-tested him (free) and came back w/similar results but w/some additional information. Mind you, the dog was a mix and the results were incomplete. By size and appearance he was at least part chihuahua. That did not show up.

              The geneticist agreed that he looked like a chihuahua, and quite likely was part chihuahua. However, the lab's database came from the AKC registry. This dog was a little mix from the San Jose area. There are a lot of chihuahuas down there, many of them from Mexico. So, that may explain it, who knows.
              it doesn't work cause it can't. For various reasons. (I am a forensic biotechnologist who is working on a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology.. do this is kind of 'my thing')

              First off there are no genes that are specific to only one breed. So what they do is take a series of non coding genes (these are the 'junk' genes that don't actually code for any proteins) and then statistically analyze them compared to the dogs they have in their databases. We can't even say what race a human is even with the huge numbers of people we have in CODIS.

              So you get a statistically analysis. And the kicker is the analysis is only as good as the software. Lets say you stick your hand in a bag and pull out a purple ball. The computer asks you to tell it if its red, or blue. You have to pick one... these types of things do that. This is how you get all sorts of erroneous results. I have told all my clients with APBT types to get their dogs tested. So far NONE have come back as APBT or even a banned breed. (bullies are banned in ontario) This gives them a level of back up if they ever need it (I tell them to still follow the law, but if the dog ever gets loose that piece of paper could save its life)

              I was just saying a 'generic you' there are lots of collies and aussies that DON'T have the MDR1 gene so can happily take ivermectin products. If you (generic) are worried about it, get the testing done...

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Thanks, everyone, for the success stories. We'll continue to hope that this girl has the same experience! As of last night, she was still on IV, still unable to move much, drooling, but not completely unconscious. She spent the day yesterday at her vet's, and then went back to the emergency clinic for the night. She'll go back to her vet's today, and hopefully home tonight. The vet started to lower the dose of anti-seizure meds yesterday and hope for a bit more conscious response and ability to move, but they're being very cautious about this.

                I'm confident that our regional emergency clinic would be up to speed on this issue, as they are the ones that suggested that it might be ivermectin toxicity that they were seeing, and we live in an area with a fair amount of horse and dog activity. In any event, no stone is going unturned in this dog's care, so we'll just continue our jingles that the good people working on her can pull out another happy ending! She is truly a wonderful dog and very much loved.
                "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                Spay and neuter. Please.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by oldpony66 View Post
                  wow, I learn something new every day! Thanks for that info, I had never heard that before.
                  Thus the reason I won't give my Collie mix Heartgard....she gets Interceptor (different drug). Haven't had her tested, just staying on the safe side and using absolutely NO ivermectin.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Jingles continue for this dog and her family ~ Jingle Jingle Jingle & AO ~ Always Optimistic ~ sending huge hugs and wishes for a day of rest & recovery for all involved in this tragic accident ~
                    Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Glad to hear she's doing ok. Sounds like it's not quite as bad as my dog's situation.

                      Just a PSA (again, as others mentioned before) that any dog can be affected by this mutation. It is more prominent in some breeds vs. others (and in some breeds you may not expect), so the only way to know is to get your dog tested. DNA testing tells you nothing about whether they may have the mutation or not. Also, if they have the mutation (or you think they may), there are other drugs that should also be avoided (list on the website below).

                      For more information, go to Washington State's website on it:
                      http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/index.aspx

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        glad I read this thread for so many reasons!
                        "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Aven View Post
                          it doesn't work cause it can't. For various reasons. (I am a forensic biotechnologist who is working on a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology.. do this is kind of 'my thing')

                          First off there are no genes that are specific to only one breed. So what they do is take a series of non coding genes (these are the 'junk' genes that don't actually code for any proteins) and then statistically analyze them compared to the dogs they have in their databases. We can't even say what race a human is even with the huge numbers of people we have in CODIS.

                          So you get a statistically analysis. And the kicker is the analysis is only as good as the software. Lets say you stick your hand in a bag and pull out a purple ball. The computer asks you to tell it if its red, or blue. You have to pick one... these types of things do that. This is how you get all sorts of erroneous results. I have told all my clients with APBT types to get their dogs tested. So far NONE have come back as APBT or even a banned breed. (bullies are banned in ontario) This gives them a level of back up if they ever need it (I tell them to still follow the law, but if the dog ever gets loose that piece of paper could save its life)

                          I was just saying a 'generic you' there are lots of collies and aussies that DON'T have the MDR1 gene so can happily take ivermectin products. If you (generic) are worried about it, get the testing done...
                          Why do some horse breeds require DNA testing?

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            horse breeds for what? No idea. We are talking dogs.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Sienna came home for the night last night! She'll go back to the vet for more fluid therapy today, but she has passed all of the charcoal and is able to eat and drink as of yesterday evening. She was able to get up when motivated by seeing her "sister" but not really stable on her feet at all. Hopefully, she has turned the corner. The power of the jingle does it again!!
                              "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                              Spay and neuter. Please.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Thanks for the good news update monstrpony ~

                                Morning Jingles for Sienna ~ so glad she was home last night ~ Jingles continue ~ Jingle Jingle Jingle & AO ~ Always Optimistic ~ thank you for the good news update monstrpony ~
                                Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Oh, I'm so glad!!

                                  My dog was unsteady for a few days, but gradually improved.

                                  What helped was making sure he had clear paths, didn't have to negotiate lots of corners to get to food and water - that sort of thing.

                                  Also, my dog was very needy, and didn't want me to go far. So I modified my pace and walked very slowly, reaching out to reassure him. I also talked to him more as his vision was not 100%. We just took it easy for a while.

                                  I don't know if this dog will act the same way as mine did - but either way I'm sure the dog will have a full recovery.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by bridgetah1 View Post
                                    Why do some horse breeds require DNA testing?
                                    You are not trying to find breed through DNA testing. You compare DNA to check to make sure the baby is from the right stallion (which they do in humans) or to check for SPECIFIC genes to see what colors they carry.

                                    That's my completely non-scientific explanation, but it shows you can look for specific things, but you can't find breed because there's no gene for breed
                                    .

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I have been in your shoes before!
                                      At the time I was managing a farm, where I lived with my 2 JRT puppies. I went through my first worming day without even a thought of putting the dogs away for the day. Without me knowing, one of my dogs cleaned up a pile of the ivermectin that must have been spit out by one of the horses. He was only 8 lbs at the time and looking back, he probably ate a good portion of a tube!
                                      That night, he started throwing up continuously and shaking like a leaf. I called the vet and they told me to give him some Pepto and he'd be fine - at this point neither of us knew he had eaten the de-wormer. I woke up in the middle of the night to him crying and walking around in circles - he wouldnt come out of the room, and ended up walking straight into the wall.
                                      I immediately rushed him to the vets, where they informed me he was completely blind and must have eaten rat poison...We thought for a while about where he could have ingested that, when one of the newer vets (who is also an equine vet) asked if I had wormed our horses...light bulb moment! I felt SO horrible and stupid for not thinking of it earlier.
                                      He was immediately put on IV fluids/charcoal to flush his system, and ended up in intensive care for 4 days.

                                      At first, they were very skeptical that his eyesight would ever return (we took him to the canine opthemologist who told us he had zero retinal activity!)

                                      When we went to pick him up when he was finally able to come home, he had about 50% of his vision back - it is still not 100% there, but he can definitely get around - and still sucessfully hunt! Just don't wear anything shiny/reflective around him! He goes mental

                                      He's a bit "off", and sometimes has trouble controlling his bladder when he's sleeping, but other than that he's a perfectly happy, healthy dog! So OP there is hope, keep the jingles coming, and I am sure your story will have a happy ending

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Bumping for an update on Sienna ~ Jingles ~
                                        Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Sienna's doing as well as can be expected. Hopefully, today will be her last therapy day at the vets. She's still been getting fluid therapy to help flush the toxins out of her liver and kidneys. She has been at home the last two nights. She is able to get herself up and enjoys going outside, but her balance is still tentative. Now that she is moving around, it is clear that she has some visual impairment, unfortunately. Hopefully, as others have experienced, this will improve with time.

                                          Thanks again for the benefit of your experiences and for the jingles and good wishes for Sienna and her people.
                                          "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                                          Spay and neuter. Please.

                                          Comment

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