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Buying your way into the Olympics...

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  • #41
    Long format 3-day

    Originally posted by Lunatteo View Post
    I have often wished we had endurance riding as an Olympic sport. I thought about that when I was watching the biking competitions.
    Ah, but then there would be no excuse for not having the long-format 3-day event, because they could use part of the endurance course.
    friend of bar.ka

    I am dressed up. These wellies are clean.

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    • #42
      As noted by others - this isn't new and to suggest it is would be completely devoid of the facts. Least anyone forget Circus Rose - aka Miss Budweiser

      The most brilliant open jumper of the immediate post-World War II era was undoubtedly Circus Rose, a 16.2-hand gray mare by Great War (by Man O' War) out of Winter Rose (by Endeavor II).

      In 1950, when she was owned by W.W. Schlusemeyer and ridden by Joe Green, she chalked up one of the most remarkable records ever amassed by a five-year-old, with 18 championships and 84 blue ribbons at 27 shows, topped off by the Jumper Championship at "The Garden", New York's National Horse Show. Following this performance she was sold to August A. Busch, Jr. for a then-record price, and renamed Miss Budweiser.

      Miss Budweiser was earmarked for Carol Durand to ride in the 1951 Olympic Trials, but the FEI declined to revise its rules and permit women to ride in show jumping at the 1952 Games at Helsinki. "Miss Bud" was turned over to U.S. team captain Arthur McCashin to ride. Before the Games, this pair collaborated in a victory in the Preis St. Georg at Dusseldorf. Then at Helsinki they placed 12th individually and helped the U.S. win its first team medal, a bronze.

      Following the Olympics, Miss Budweiser was returned to the Busch family's Grant's Farm in St. Louis, Mo.
      Not exactly a Snowman tale now is it

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      • #43
        I think with this sport you have to have money to even place...even at local shows..
        Nothing better than an OTTB.... Just Plan Partners,Penny, you have stolen my heart<3

        http://secondchancethoroughbreds.org

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
          Mounted archery and Native Americans? Stereotype much? Probably not. I see disaster in the making with that one, kind of like Pentathalon-all those non-riders but good shots? Oye!!

          You'd really have to go back to the Mongol Empire to find true mounted archers. Not so much with American Indians, despite what Hollywood showed us

          The Turks were famous mounted archers in all their different types and kinds for centuries. I would think that countries like Azerbaijan and Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan might be good at mounted archery.
          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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          • #45
            A sub discussion to this thread -- and one that has been going on for a long time over on the Sport Horse Breeding forum -- is the lack of North American bred horses who reach upper levels.

            Unlike the Saudis, etc, who have no history of equestrian Olympic competition, we DO have the history and capability to breed talented horses. But even the horses which were purchased as young horses and trained by Americans, are mostly European breds. They are not "homebreds", of which we should be justifiably proud.

            McLain Ward is an example of this. He goes to Europe and finds talented youngsters and imports them. Many are sold and go on to become good jumpers. The best ones he sells to his clients so he keeps the ride on them; he always has horses coming up the pipeline. But they are not US Breds. Even if they are bought as 5 - 7 year olds, we are still buying our way into talented horses.

            Yes, Americans (and Canadians) breed good horses, but there is a disconnect between breeding and showing. The Maddens are trying to "bridge the gap" and identify such talented horses. Kudo's to them.

            I am well aware of the Chapots and the likes of Miss Budweiser and Riviera Wonder and Jacks or Better and Nautical and Second Balcony and, and, and.

            But that was a different world. As part owner of Touch of Class and the owner of Isabella, her daughter, I know that TB's were our bread and butter. We existed on OTTB's when Europe was breeding jumpers. When the style of courses and the demands made on upper level jumpers favored the WB, rather than start to breed our own, we just went abroad and bought other country's product.

            I know that the OP did not mean to target the US when she started this thread, but it is a case of "pot, meet kettle" to say that other countries have bought their way into International success.

            Now Saudi Arabia is leading in the team competition without a single jumping fault. US riders who are also riding European horses, are standing tied for 7th. They also had a rider medal at WEG, so they didn't appear from no where at these Olympics.

            Judging from current results, who has the better program?
            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

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            • #46
              Unlike the many owners from back in the day who retired horses- like the Busch's
              did with Miss Bud - the majority of today's owners find it hard to turn down the kind of money a Championship level horse commands.
              I'm pretty sure Davos and Reboza were American owned at one time.
              This is Big Sport but it's also big business.

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              • #47
                Uthopia will be sold after the Olympics - always the plan - and Valegro probably will be as well. Hester and Dujardin are both professional riders and neither come from money. However, as they have brought these horses up to the very top themselves, there will be other horses. Hopefully many other horses because Hester, in particular, is a tremenous horseman as well as rider.
                "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                  Not so much with American Indians, despite what Hollywood showed us
                  I would say 'Tell that to Custer' but most of the indians used rifles on that one.
                  I may be a couple of centuries out of time but in their day the native americans were one of the best light cavelry. They won more battles than the books indicate or the white man cares to admit.

                  When I think of mounted archers what comes to mind.
                  Native americans (Thank you Remington for the paintings), Parthions, Mongols in that order, don't know why they are in that order but my mind just works that way.
                  Last edited by 5; Aug. 5, 2012, 11:58 PM.
                  A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
                  Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                    The Turks were famous mounted archers in all their different types and kinds for centuries. I would think that countries like Azerbaijan and Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan might be good at mounted archery.
                    They would all have to take a number behind Japan. There is a VERY old tradition of mounted archery that is still a big deal, and scary accurate to watch. I would think that Japan would be very, very good with the idea of adding mounted archery. (I would be tempted, I admit, I'm a decent rider and an okay shot with a bow, I've always kind of wondered about combining them, though I'm not sure Lucky is THAT calm...)

                    Personally, I'd like to see reining added in (but then we'd have threads on Germans, Dutch, etc buying their way in--they already started importing American Quarter Horses, after all...which only makes sense as we have those horses, they don't, if they want them they have to get them from SOMEWHERE and since they can't wave a magic wand and conjure reining horses from the dust, buying them is probably the way to go...)
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                    • #50
                      Umm reining is already really big in Europe. Do they import horses from the US? Yeah, but they also have really big breeding programs as well. In fact, a few of the breeders (Arcese and Sternberg, to name 2) are leading breeders here in the states.

                      So if an Italian breeder breeds a horse here in the states and then imports it to Europe, is that wrong?
                      Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                        They would all have to take a number behind Japan. There is a VERY old tradition of mounted archery that is still a big deal, and scary accurate to watch. I would think that Japan would be very, very good with the idea of adding mounted archery. (I would be tempted, I admit, I'm a decent rider and an okay shot with a bow, I've always kind of wondered about combining them, though I'm not sure Lucky is THAT calm...)

                        This. I lived in Japan for a year (as well as Hong Kong) and they're really into it... and phenomenal at it.

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                        • #52
                          Every country competing with a horse who isn't native to the area has had to buy their way in at some point. At what point do you draw the line and say that the horse is finally an "American" or a "British" or a "Jordanian" horse? When the horse itself is purchased? If it was bred in that country? If its grandsire was bred in that country?

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by 5 View Post
                            Perhaps the olympics should out of respect for the rest of the world include non european equestrian events.

                            Ban'ei racing
                            Dzhigitovka
                            Endurance
                            Mounted Archery
                            Reining
                            Tent pegging
                            YES. This. I'd buy a TV just to watch any one of those.

                            And team roping :-)

                            ETA: To all the people talking about mounted archery, Turks were historically probably the best. Most Mongolian armies were populated by Turkish tribes with Mongol generals.

                            Right now? I'd bet on Hungarians every time. Google it and enjoy some videos.

                            As for Native Americans not being good at horseback archery, what the what? I've read account after account--whether from Texas Rangers, travel writers, or people who fought at Little Bighorn--that even 14 year-olds were known for putting arrows THROUGH a buffalo, and a grown man with ease. If anyone knows anything about hunting ballistics, that's saying something. So...don't know where you got that, at all.

                            My great x 4 grandfather was known to be able to shoot birds on the wing at a gallop, according to visiting Englishmen who wrote of him in their travelogues. Sadly, I did not inherit his skill :-)
                            My website

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                            • #54
                              I don't like the insinuation that some riders lack talent but can afford a push button horse or something just to ride in the Olympics.

                              Cylana was already 10 when Reed Kessler bought her. Did she buy her way into the Olympics? Yes. Can she ride? Yes. And that is the same with every rider in these games.

                              Robert Dover, Steffan Peters, and Debbie MacDonald all have or had wealthy benefactors who bought horses specifically for them to take to that level. Debbie trained Brentina herself, but without the Macks, she wouldn't have been there.
                              2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                              A helmet saved my life.

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                              • #55
                                QacarXan (sp?)--Native Americans using bow while on horseback NOW, in the US? I'm guessing not so much. At least the NAMS of the PNW sure aren't--I don't think it is a skill retained by many at a level to put into the Olympics, nor is it an "inherited" skill. By the time Bighorn came around, I'd say that most of the combatants were armed with rifles. Yes, NAMs of the plains were good cavalry, but the era of bow vs. rifle was short lived.
                                Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                                  QacarXan (sp?)--Native Americans using bow while on horseback NOW, in the US? I'm guessing not so much. At least the NAMS of the PNW sure aren't--I don't think it is a skill retained by many at a level to put into the Olympics, nor is it an "inherited" skill. By the time Bighorn came around, I'd say that most of the combatants were armed with rifles. Yes, NAMs of the plains were good cavalry, but the era of bow vs. rifle was short lived.
                                  I don't have a relationship with every tribe, but I know Lakota who still hunt on horseback.

                                  As for bows and guns, not everyone had a gun or ammo during most of the wars the Lakota had with the U.S., so in every account I've read, there was a mix of Winchesters, Henrys, Sharps, and sinew-lined bows. I handled a few when I worked in a museum in South Dakota. They are some fantastic weapons.

                                  Anyhow, a lot of countries are revitalizing their martial equestrian traditions, from Iran to Azerbaijan to Hungary to the Oglala Tribe. Pretty cool era for mounted archery, excepting 1750 and earlier! What a cool Olympic sport that would be, too...
                                  My website

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by QacarXan View Post
                                    My great x 4 grandfather was known to be able to shoot birds on the wing at a gallop, according to visiting Englishmen who wrote of him in their travelogues. Sadly, I did not inherit his skill :-)
                                    My parrots sent you their blessing to compensate for your lack of that particular skill. :nOD:
                                    Last edited by 5; Aug. 6, 2012, 12:20 AM.
                                    A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
                                    Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by QacarXan View Post
                                      My great x 4 grandfather was known to be able to shoot birds on the wing at a gallop, according to visiting Englishmen who wrote of him in their travelogues. Sadly, I did not inherit his skill :-)
                                      My parrots sent you their blessing to compensate for your lack of that particular skill. :YES:
                                      A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
                                      Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I don't think PNW Natives had much use for hunting on horseback, the horse was late to come to the area, because they weren't as big on hunting big game and had no real need for horses. The midwestern plains tribes were the real hunters, whose lives revolved around big game hunting. Hollywood likes to portray most Native peoples as plains peoples although most Native peoples were NOT plains people and lived very different lifestyles and had vastly different subsistence strategies. The plains peoples took to "horse culture" very quickly, but other people around the world had thousands of years of horse culture before them, and the horse culture at it's height in the plains people was rather short-lived because of the decline of buffalo and the influx of settlers.

                                        And now I'll take off my geeky historical archaeologist hat

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                                        • #60
                                          This is always a hot topic. Having lived in Ireland and also seeing how things are done in Europe, it's fair to say they are Nation's of producers. Other countries buy from these producers including the US. Nothing wrong with that is there? The system over here is from breeding to UL's. The top breeders breed for nothing but the UL's and have an excellent system of getting horses out and about without costing a fortune. You don't here anyone say I'm breeding for the 3ft Ammie hunter rider. Those horses happen without trying to breed for that situation. It's a common misconception to believe breeding for upper levels equals pro rides only.

                                          I'm a fan of the Saudi team except for Sharbatly. The other 3 riders made really rode fantastic yesterday and looked so happy with themselves and more importantly their horses. So I wil be cheering for them today.

                                          If I had endless amounts of income I'm sure I could buy a top horse too. I'm also quite sure I couldn't ride that good horse over a 1.10m track clear! I don't have the key ingredient to ride a good horse, talent.

                                          As far as Cylana is concerned when she was bought last year she had never jumped higher than a 1.35 m class. In case you don't know, that's a huge difference in what she is jumping at the Olympics. So well done to Reed in developing this mare to this level.

                                          Terri
                                          COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                          "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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