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Eventing Dressage is What Dressage SHOULD be?

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  • #41
    bleh.... sad to say that i just started watching the "real" dressage and i honestly cant stand watching most of the rides.... the horses looks so tense and miserable! you can hear many of them grinding their teeth and of course the tight back and wringing tails...

    i really do think that eventing dressage is where it is at! and i take a big deep breath of relief when i watch it compared to real dresasge where i want to grind my teeth too!


    • #42
      MBM, we must be watching different tests then. I don't see miserable.


      • #43
        Originally posted by mbm View Post
        hey a question: for those eventers that show regular dressage - what is the differences, in any, in scoring?

        i would think there wouldn't be any since it is the same judges, but watching the olympic dressage makes me think there would be... ?
        In the United States, requirements for "eventing" dressage judges are different than for "straight" dressage. In fact, eventing judges do not need to hold USEF licenses as indicated in section GR1055 of the USEF Licensed Officials guide. I believe that a licensed eventing steward or TD, for example, can attend a clinic, complete an application and voila, judge the dressage phase of eventing at USAE competitions.

        "Eventing Judges who do not hold a Federation Dressage Judge’s license must also attend a national level Dressage Judges clinic once every three years or a Dressage for Eventing clinic especially organized for this purpose."


        • #44
          It's possible that the big issue here is the very genuine difference that occurs in a horse's physique and carriage between third level and Grand Prix. That difference can result in less-educated or less-experienced eyes making assumptions of fakery and tension where they don't necessarily exist. That's not to say there is no incorrectness in Grand Prix dressage, but only more or less the same amount as at CCI four star level (or whatever Olympic eventing equates to these days).
          Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


          • #45
            to me the differences - level of training aside - is the forwardness and freedom.... many competitive FEI horses are tense and held by the hand... it is my main complaint about "modern " dressage... Eventing dressage still looks like real old fashioned/traditional dressage to me - less hand riding - more forward energy used to engage the hind end, etc.

            in other words: it looks like what used to be considered correct (ala klimke et al)

            i will say not all FEI horses look tense.... there are some lovely ones competing right now.... but for the most part ? hmmmmm.......


            • #46
              The perfect example is Adelinde Cornelisson's test this morning on Parzival. She was cranking on the curb rein the entire ride and he just didn't look happy to be working. I never saw her relax the rein once. She was rewarded for this with a 81.6%, good for 2nd place.
              No Trouble
              2/2/05 - 7/29/13
              Rest In Peace my quirky brave boy, I will love you forever.


              • #47
                She was rewarded because he is an active and lovely moving horse that any decent eye would see is fluid and relaxed
                ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                • Original Poster

                  OK, I skipped to the end and watched Parzival. All I can say is the commentors on how unhappy and cranked he was do not know what they are talking about and clearly have never ridden FEI. I agree NOMIOMI1--looked VERY relaxed and supple throughout, floppy ears, poll high. I would have liked more length of neck in extensions.

                  The only way a curb looks "cranked" is when the chain is super loose as to the point of not being there. When it looks like the curb is down and not being pulled on is when the curb chain is tighter. The horse was only able to open his mouth was because the noseband as looser.

                  I've been playing with very slight adjustments on my mare's bridle to see just what is the perfect combination for her. The ONLY time I got comments about pulling on the curb too much was when the chain was so loose it was ineffective.

                  So, maybe what you see without understanding in real use is not what it seems to be. If you have not ridden FEI, or have ridden hot, strong horses, you would know what this is. My mare is seems something like PArzival--hot and strong, but super sensitive, and you find the right way to ride them.


                  • #49
                    I don't think you can compare the eventing horses doing dressage to the horses that compete in straight dressage. The quality of dressage and required moves are not even on the same level. I personally didn’t think much of the of dressage shown by a number of the eventers but had to remind myself that those same horses will/did gallop around the xc and then show jump. My two cents as an arm chair Olympian


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by AllWeatherGal View Post
                      In the United States, requirements for "eventing" dressage judges are different than for "straight" dressage. In fact, eventing judges do not need to hold USEF licenses as indicated in section GR1055 of the USEF Licensed Officials guide.]
                      You are COMPLETELY misreading the rule. The judges for recognized Eventing Dressage MUST hold a USEF license. It can be EITHER a Dressage judges license OR an Eventing Judge license.

                      I believe that a licensed eventing steward or TD, for example, can attend a clinic, complete an application and voila, judge the dressage phase of eventing at USAE competitions.
                      This is completely untrue. For an Eventing TD to get an Eventing judges license (to judge Eventing Dressage) you have to
                      Take a course
                      Put in many hours of "practise judging" with a licensed judge
                      Pass a written exam
                      Pass a judging exam (judging real tests in parallel with the judge).

                      I'll not deny that it is easier to get an Eventing Judges licensse than a Dressage judges license. But there is MUCH more than you describe.

                      You can not judge dressage at a Recognized Event without a USEF judges license (either Dressage or Eventing).

                      You can not get your USEF Eventing Judges license without proving your ability to judge dressage tests.

                      (There is no such thing as an eventing steward in USEF)

                      "Eventing Judges who do not hold a Federation Dressage Judge’s license must also attend a national level Dressage Judges clinic once every three years or a Dressage for Eventing clinic especially organized for this purpose."
                      Yes, once you have your Eventing Judges license (by passing the exams, etc.) you have to take the same clinics as the straight Dressage judges.

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                      • #51
                        Good point Beenthere!

                        I forget the shank can look unused if the chain is tight, but you can be cranking from the hand without anyone even noticing except the horse!

                        That horse was WAY too active behind to have a hand against it. People also dont understand that you can keep the pressure on the bit without it being uncomfortable. It takes a very trained hand and independent one that most do not have.

                        LOVELY rider and I would hope people would choose to learn something here rather than point fingers (or be left behind *shrug*)
                        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                        • #52
                          In the previous era of dressage riders with wobbly heads and leaning backwards in the saddle and horses well behind the vertical looking miserable, I could not watch 'pure dressage'. So eventing dressage won hands down.

                          However, here in the UK the event riders spend their winters riding in dressage competition to improve their skills, with visible results. So that suggests event horses can do pure dresage and often very well. And the big contribution of the recent rise of British dressage has been a sensitive style of riding, in balance and in harmony with a forward going horse. Laura B also events as a sideline and her extended canter at WEG was a joy to see - perhaps because she is confident on a horse moving at speed? Carl Hester had years of riding eventers before he took up dressage and he is certainly not precious about his animals and regularly hacks them out, including cantering around the fields. Happy horses. One rarely sees dressage horses out eventing, perhaps because they are too dependent on their rider saying where they should put their feet?
                          "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths


                          • #53
                            Several of the comments on this thread show why I flinch at dressage shows when I show up with my eventer. I'm frequently greeted with 'oh, you're eventers' and a disdainful look. I actually had someone ask if I was there to learn how dressage is supposed to look. Considering some of the things I see at the local dressage shows? Nope, got nothing to learn from that crew.

                            I enjoy watching the eventing dressage because I can see horses that will gallop over insane obstacles that are also willing to go play in the sand box in a snaffle. Those beautiful transitions are even more impressive on a relaxed contact with a loose ring snaffle. I find that a lot of the differences are actually in the personalities desired. We need our XC partners to think for themselves and have an opinion while submission is more prized in dressage.

                            For the question as to scoring, I find that the scores at the dressage shows are roughly equivalent to what I'm getting at the events. However, my mare does better with more to do in a test (short attention span), so she's doing better with the straight dressage tests. I'm also more relaxed at dressage shows since I don't have to do any course walks or worry about things I need to jump later in the day.
                            http://thoughtfulequestrian.blogspot.com - My Ventures Into Eventing


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                              Yup, kinda important going xc

                              ETA:Back when I was eventing whips in dressage weren't allowed, the reason being if the horse wasn't in front of the leg you didn't have a prayer xc
                              Me, too. I was lucky and remembered to drop my whip before trotting down center line, but plenty of my friends weren't.

                              I agree that eventing dressage is much better, and closer to what dressage is supposed to be, than what one sees in the straight dressage competitions. The whole point of dressage is training. If all your horse can do is training exercises, what's the point of doing all the training? The eventers, IMO, show the evolution of what a correctly trained horse should be.

                              And if XC didn't scare the pants off me, I'd probably go back to eventing rather than looking at doing jumpers when I go back in the ring.
                              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                              A life lived by example, done too soon.